Turbo B16a V B18C Conversion - Opinions Needed

[jugbugz]

I think those purist should die in a fire and learn about cars before they talk... god damn im in a foul mood tonight...

lol... calm down...

 

[D'janiero]

Cool. Thanks again guys. Glad to know that a turbo setup won't spoil any characteristics of the car appart from the braking i.e. getting uprated pads/brakes.

Being 100% honest I think alot of the peeps against turbo'ing the 9's have never experienced a turbo ek...they're just die hard n/a fans which isn't a bad thing. Everyone has different tastes I guess.

I never really though about a s/c but I guess its something else to consider.

lol @ blinx's comment about the purists.

 

[blinx9900]

A nice slot in between high capacity N/A and Turbo would be a Supercharger.

I have a centrifugal system on my other car. Some ppl might not like the fact it produces boost according to engine RPM, so max boost pressure doesnt arrive until the redline because it is simply a 'Belt Driven Turbo'.
However, its more efficient than the roots type and produces much less heat + you can run an intercooler in the system. it also gives you that Turbo induction whistle sound.

while centrifugal units are decent and make decent power the Cost is just insane! ~$5000+ for a kit last time i checked. And unfortunately the have the worse of both worlds, they make less low end power then a roots type SC and a turbo and they make less top end than a turbo. Now there certainly are some benefits, a very linear controlable power band, easier install, less heat is generated etc... but the price is just too high for these things, especially now with the rotrex units hitting the market...

 

[JIMBOB-EK9]

I think your decision would be best suited to your budget!

I can comment on the B18 though!
For cost & reliability i would say the b18 route ( but that’s my biased opinion)

The increase in power & torque is just what the 9 needs (imo)

I get a lot of people asking me is there that much difference from the B16B & everyone gets the same answer! – YES a big difference in every aspect. They are great!

But after all this I am getting to use to the power now and I want more! but don’t we all? LOL

I would be willing to take you for a spin in mine anytime, dont think you are to far from me are you???

 

[jugbugz]

while centrifugal units are decent and make decent power the Cost is just insane! ~$5000+ for a kit last time i checked. And unfortunately the have the worse of both worlds, they make less low end power then a roots type SC and a turbo and they make less top end than a turbo. Now there certainly are some benefits, a very linear controlable power band, easier install, less heat is generated etc... but the price is just too high for these things, especially now with the rotrex units hitting the market...

Yes they are expensive and I personally dont like Vortech or Rotrex. Old technology and has not made such a great impression on CF chargers. However, CF chargers have evolved since 5yrs+ ago...

The best Centrifugal blower by far is the ASA made in germany. Provides positive boost off 1500rpm. The helical tooth transmission inside turns the turbine wheel 15x engine rpm.
I know this is good, because I have one.
:::::: ASA Ingenieurbüro ::::::

Although there are many routes for increasing power, CF blower isn't as cost efficient or the most potent system but it is much more reliable, a easy bolt on system and more of an individual choice. That linear 45 degree powerband does benefit in some setups and is very controlable compared to turbo...

What you get is a grunty low-mid end with a turbo top end whack but with the delivery of a N/A engine.

As said, its more of a personal preference and mild setup. But it sure does drive very fine indeed...

 

[jugbugz]

Oh yeh, I forgot to mention that the fastest modded road car on the Nurburgring did 7.22secs! Smashing the Pangani F1 time.

That car is the E46 M3 CSL + Centfiugal supercharger making 500bhp+
CF chargers isn't something to belittle...

7.22 BMW M3 CSL Loaded
7.28 Pagani Zonda F
7.28 Porsche Carrera GT
7.32 Porsche 911 GT2
7.32 Gemballa Porsche GTR
7.34 Koenigsegg CCR
7.38 Nissan GT-R
7.39 Porsche 911 GT3 997
7.40 Porsche 911 Turbo 997
7.40 Mercedes SLR McLaren
7.40 Bugatti Veyron
7.42 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
7.42 Ford GT
7.43 Lamborghini Murcielago


YouTube - Loaded bmw official Timeattack

 

[blinx9900]

Whats the cost on that ASA unit? Also i would not consider Rotrext in the same category as Centrifugal Superchargers like vortech...

 

[jugbugz]

Sorry for Hi-jacking the thread D'janeiro!

Well I remember ESS Tuning offered their ASA kit for BMWs for about $5k-6k USD. This included injectors, intercooler, piping, belt, tuning etc. Adds minimum 100bhp to the range of motors. Their first kits were based off Vortech blowers, then onto ASA, but now ESS uses Twin screw type chargers.

Rotrex, Vortech and ASA all are belt driven turbos. Its just the Tranny mechanism is what sets them apart. ASA has the most efficient and highest multiplyer, also the turbine is designed better.

That ESS tuned M3 CSL is using the older but upgraded stage 3 VORTECH kit with lowered comp down to 10.5CR, which isnt much since its around 11CR stock. Power seems to be higher since I remember, it had 530whp at nurburgring, but amazingly its 180kgs heavier than the pagani. And so far, its done over 40,000 TRACK miles without any rebuilds.

Looking at the Mod specs, it doesn't seem to be as extremely prepped like others Ive seen. It just shows how good the M3 CSL chassis is.

The Loaded BMW Tech Spec

Apparently they could have gotten 7:10 without traffic. Just have to wait

 

[Dino-Spumoni]

DJaniero, why not just turbo the b16b. Besides the research involved to do it right, it's the most instantly gratifying of your options, and could very well be the least expensive. With a good tune the high compression pistons won't be a problem, so long as you don't want huge power gains. If you want a longer term project a K20 or K24 would be a great option.

I have to ask, what kind powerband are you looking for? If some slight low RPM turbo lag seems like it would be a problem for you, maybe the linear powerbands of NA and SC would be more your thing.
Then take into account what kind of upkeep you want to have with your car. If you don't like checking and fiddling with your car all the time then maybe turbo isn't right for you. If power is your priority then turbo IS right for you.

 

[blinx9900]

I have to ask, what kind powerband are you looking for? If some slight low RPM turbo lag seems like it would be a problem for you, maybe the linear powerbands of NA and SC would be more your thing.
Then take into account what kind of upkeep you want to have with your car. If you don't like checking and fiddling with your car all the time then maybe turbo isn't right for you. If power is your priority then turbo IS right for you.

a properly sized turbo will make more bottom end power than any supercharger roots or centrifugal and more top end power than both, GT28RS i have seen it many times. The centrifugal builds boos on RPM so it has lag, the Roots builds boost instantly but is so inefficient the little turbo will still make more power at any rpm than a JRSC car.

 

[EK9dan]

My experience is i love the vtec feel as standard, pure N/A grunt is great on these cars, suits them down to a "T"... This maybe because my other car is a very high powered turbo hatch..

My personal view would be to build an all motor with this car, if you want a forced induction system then buy a car that has it in the first place.

Dont kill me people, thats just from my experience and view on the subject. Im completely confidant that a turbod ek9 would be amazing in its own rightful way, But you are taking something away from it, for some something better, for others not as appealing.

All preference mate. Oh and its nice to see you on here D'janiero

 

[jugbugz]

I also prefer N/A for these cars.

 

[D'janiero]

Man, I forgot all about this thread. Thanks again for all the replies. Some pretty interesting info, especially from Jugbugz and Blinx about the superchagers etc.

DJaniero, why not just turbo the b16b. Besides the research involved to do it right, it's the most instantly gratifying of your options, and could very well be the least expensive. With a good tune the high compression pistons won't be a problem, so long as you don't want huge power gains. If you want a longer term project a K20 or K24 would be a great option.

I have to ask, what kind powerband are you looking for? If some slight low RPM turbo lag seems like it would be a problem for you, maybe the linear powerbands of NA and SC would be more your thing.
Then take into account what kind of upkeep you want to have with your car. If you don't like checking and fiddling with your car all the time then maybe turbo isn't right for you. If power is your priority then turbo IS right for you.

Finding a tuner over hear that is confident enough in tuning high compression turbo engines is the main problem I have really dude.
I've since considered going down the k20 route, but a b16a turbo is alot more appealing to me, especially after seeing dudes with great setups like the one ek9turbo has.

I want my 9 to have around 260-300whp, and have more useable power/torque in the lower rpm range, but still have the pulling power in the higher rpm's if possible.
But most importantly the car has to be reliable enough to use everyday as its my only car.
A few of the turbo vtec guys I know have told me they're engines are just as reliable as they were stock, with not alot extra maintenance

a properly sized turbo will make more bottom end power than any supercharger roots or centrifugal and more top end power than both, GT28RS i have seen it many times. The centrifugal builds boos on RPM so it has lag, the Roots builds boost instantly but is so inefficient the little turbo will still make more power at any rpm than a JRSC car.

Bro I remember sometime ago, there was a member asking you about an afi turbo kit,(HondaMarketPlace.com: Forced Induction: AFI "Street Series" Turbo Kit, $2499 + Flat-Rate Shipping!) and and you were saying that he should upgrade to a GT series turbo if possible. I was jus wondering the the differences were in the turbo that comes with the kit and the GT series one you mensioned?

My experience is i love the vtec feel as standard, pure N/A grunt is great on these cars, suits them down to a "T"... This maybe because my other car is a very high powered turbo hatch..

My personal view would be to build an all motor with this car, if you want a forced induction system then buy a car that has it in the first place.

Dont kill me people, thats just from my experience and view on the subject. Im completely confidant that a turbod ek9 would be amazing in its own rightful way, But you are taking something away from it, for some something better, for others not as appealing.

All preference mate. Oh and its nice to see you on here D'janiero

Hey Dan. Good to see you on here too man
I see where your coming from i.e. to have an all motor built, but I reccon I'd want more at a later date if I went down that route, plus n/a tuning is extremely expensive.

Alot of mates think I'm crazy for wanting to turbo my 9, and reccon I'd be better off buying a turbo car and tuning that instead. However I really love my ek9, and see myself keeping it for a long time. Plus I'd like to be slightly different by having a turbo ek9. I reccon I'll be keeping my b16b too, so if I ever decided to change back to n/a at a later date, I've always got that option

 

[jugbugz]

Blinx, isn't 5psi + 98 octane on the B16B fine? And it should net somewhere about 280bhp?

I don't really see the need to get a 16a since its just 0.4CR less. 16B just has so much more over the 16a.

 

[D'janiero]

bump

 

[Joshm88]

Made any decisions yet fella? I didn't hear any turbo whoooosh when you drove past....

I reckon go K20 or B16a Turbo !!!!

 

[D'janiero]

lol...I was'nt going fast enough so you could'nt hear my turbo spool up.
I've decided I'm deffo going to go for a turbo build dude.
A few people have suggested turbo'ing the stock b16b and running it at a low boost i.e 6 psi.
But I reccon I'd rather do it properly and have a motor fully built so I can run higher boost at a later date,plus tuning with a lower compression engine seems to make sense too.
From what I understand, I can get a bare b16a block then use my b16b head, cams etc, then have the motor fully built with forged pistons, rods etc.

 

[Joshm88]

lol...I was'nt going fast enough so you could'nt hear my turbo spool up.
I've decided I'm deffo going to go for a turbo build dude.
A few people have suggested turbo'ing the stock b16b and running it at a low boost i.e 6 psi.
But I reccon I'd rather do it properly and have a motor fully built so I can run higher boost at a later date,plus tuning with a lower compression engine seems to make sense too.
From what I understand, I can get a bare b16a block then use my b16b head, cams etc, then have the motor fully built with forged pistons, rods etc.

Sounds awesome dude! You can take me for a spin once it's done....I'll meet you in Prestwich haha

I haven't even got my B-series in yet and I'm already thinking of upgrading to a B18c block, keeping my B16a head but getting it ported

Turbo should be awesome though, have you been in Will's? EK9Turbo? He only took me out for a quick spin in it at the last mcr-vtec meet but

 

[blinx9900]

Bro I remember sometime ago, there was a member asking you about an afi turbo kit,(HondaMarketPlace.com: Forced Induction: AFI "Street Series" Turbo Kit, $2499 + Flat-Rate Shipping!) and and you were saying that he should upgrade to a GT series turbo if possible. I was jus wondering the the differences were in the turbo that comes with the kit and the GT series one you mensioned?

Garrett GT series are dual ball bearing turbo's. They spool faster, are more linear and make more power. By linear i mean i can give a little gas mid corner and build a few psi to gently pull me through a turn, this is not really possible with a journal bearing (non ball bearing) turbo as they are usually full boost or no boost.

Blinx, isn't 5psi + 98 octane on the B16B fine? And it should net somewhere about 280bhp?

I don't really see the need to get a 16a since its just 0.4CR less. 16B just has so much more over the 16a.

yes you are correct for the most part, i would say at 5psi more like 250bhp everybody always wants more power though... boost is addicting...

 

[EK9turbo]

From what I understand, I can get a bare b16a block AND CRANKthen use my b16b head, cams etc, then have the motor fully built with forged pistons, rods etc.