ITG maxogen airbox

[eby5838]

Yes, its best not to get so hyped on what manufacturers say about hp gains. It may stand on normal engines but ours are making minimum 100hp per litre, so thats ferrari territory. All Type R parts are highly engineered to work in sync, changing 1 part affects everything. ( oh, and they need to advertise or no one will buy it!)

Think about what you going to do with it in the future then plan and layout your mods. But no matter what, Cold air will give you consistant gains. This is what you want. You dont want to loose power when you engine gets hot.

For Stock cam setups, any CAI will do. but the best is to do the CAI stock box mod. Its free!

think about free flowing intakes when you think about cams.

so your telling people that the best thing to do is the stock box mod cos its free when you bought a j's racing kit,whats the point in giving advice when you don't do the same??????

 

[RagingAngel]

So unless theres a lot of restriction, you wont see any gains.

The only thing that allows your engine to suck in more air, is the cams.

So lets not think 'I can gain 8hp with this and that intake etc etc etc.' complete rubbish!

changing 1 part affects everything. ( oh, and they need to advertise or no one will buy it!)

Think about what you going to do with it in the future then plan and layout your mods. But no matter what, Cold air will give you consistant gains. This is what you want. You dont want to loose power when you engine gets hot.

For Stock cam setups, any CAI will do. but the best is to do the CAI stock box mod. Its free!

think about free flowing intakes when you think about cams.

Oversimplification yet again.

So if we go on the principle that cams are the only thing that allows the engine to process more air then I guess we should all ditch our 5Zigen headers and Fujitsubo exhausts - we may as well throw away the decat and install all OEM exhaust components.

You quip about how everything works in conjunction and is a full system tuned to its potential, yet it's "The only thing that allows your engine to suck in more air, is the cams."

If you suck in more air, you need to expel it. If you suck in more air, you need more fuel to ignite it. I find it a little difficult why you think 8-10whp on a stock B16B is "rubbish" as well. Sure there are some unscrupulous sellers out there, but there is also some good valid date floating around.

If it's really about banging the cold air drum, then get a hondata intake manifold gasket already. There's all this talk about heat soak and there's nothing being done about it at the manifold side of things. It's cheaper and way more effective if that's the case.

more info here:
Heatshield

 

[eby5838]

Oversimplification yet again.

So if we go on the principle that cams are the only thing that allows the engine to process more air then I guess we should all ditch our 5Zigen headers and Fujitsubo exhausts - we may as well throw away the decat and install all OEM exhaust components.

You quip about how everything works in conjunction and is a full system tuned to its potential, yet it's "The only thing that allows your engine to suck in more air, is the cams."

If you suck in more air, you need to expel it. If you suck in more air, you need more fuel to ignite it. I find it a little difficult why you think 8-10whp on a stock B16B is "rubbish" as well. Sure there are some unscrupulous sellers out there, but there is also some good valid date floating around.

If it's really about banging the cold air drum, then get a hondata intake manifold gasket already. There's all this talk about heat soak and there's nothing being done about it at the manifold side of things. It's cheaper and way more effective if that's the case.

more info here:
Heatshield

ill second all of that mate,sounds to me like he hasn't got a clue,the basic principle is that the quicker you can get cold air in and out the car the better it will perform,im sure you don't need after market cams in order to use a decent intake.

 

[jon_g]

This thread is going to end in tears...............

 

[olly ek9]

i see trouble ahead.............

 

[Jokeshopbeard]

ill second all of that mate,sounds to me like he hasn't got a clue

I don't think there's really any need for that mate, jugbugz is a good guy, always helpful.

What was going on above is just two people debating a point, it aint right you getting stuck in and slagging off the party you dont agree with.

There just aint a need for insults being thrown right here...

 

[eby5838]

I don't think there's really any need for that mate, jugbugz is a good guy, always helpful.

What was going on above is just two people debating a point, it aint right you getting stuck in and slagging off the party you dont agree with.

There just aint a need for insults being thrown right here...

mayby that was a little harsh,my apologies im staying out of this thread now

 

[jugbugz]

Oversimplification yet again.

So if we go on the principle that cams are the only thing that allows the engine to process more air then I guess we should all ditch our 5Zigen headers and Fujitsubo exhausts - we may as well throw away the decat and install all OEM exhaust components.

You quip about how everything works in conjunction and is a full system tuned to its potential, yet it's "The only thing that allows your engine to suck in more air, is the cams."

If you suck in more air, you need to expel it. If you suck in more air, you need more fuel to ignite it. I find it a little difficult why you think 8-10whp on a stock B16B is "rubbish" as well. Sure there are some unscrupulous sellers out there, but there is also some good valid date floating around.

If it's really about banging the cold air drum, then get a hondata intake manifold gasket already. There's all this talk about heat soak and there's nothing being done about it at the manifold side of things. It's cheaper and way more effective if that's the case.

more info here:
Heatshield

Actually, I think we both have a different view on how we catagorise things, so just bare with me 1 moment.

Headers, exhuast, intake, accessories, aircon, pulley, flywheel, tranny etc etc are all considered as freeing up HP to the wheels <---

It is an accessory to the engine<----

This is the misconception most people have.

For example, The 185bhp B16B is actually making about 40-50HP more if you delete all the accessories, the fact is 185bhp is the NET amount. So its around 235bhp GROSS. The fact that most Engines loose around 50HP just to run all the accessories like pulley, pumps etc etc etc.

Headers, exhuast, intake, accessories, aircon, pulley, flywheel, tranny etc etc are all there for us to modify and improve on efficiency and have more NET HP. Which is interpreted as HP to the wheels.

When you dont touch the cams on your engine, the engine is still making the same HP and Torque. Nothing has changed! It is the power that is driven to the wheels is what we see on a dyno. So if we make things more efficient, we see more HP to the wheels.

So thats another misconception. Just because a stock B18C makes 130whp and another B18C + bolt ons make 140whp, they both are still making the same GROSS HP at the Engine<--- because cams are the same. Its just that the modded B18C has freed up more power to the wheels.

Cams opens and closes the valves for a xx amount of time. It is up to the accessories to be as efficient as possible inorder to NET as much power as possible.

Think about why New cars are using Electric water pumps? Ofcourse to free up more NET HP. Also Gear ratios have the same effect.

Another example is Forced induction. Its an artificial way to cheat efficiency that N/A motors have to worry about.

Also, Venturi TBs increases the air velocity after passing through as well as Velocity stacks, this is all catagorised as EFFICIENCY on the intake side.

1. On the exhuast side, header designs and pipe sizes are all there for us to create a ---Scavenging effect---... for what?
2. To improve the induction ofcourse. So if you have a well developed exhuast system, you'll increase the scavenging effect to have better induction....
3. Then thats why you need to be efficient on the intake side to help promote what the exhuast is doing.
4. Velocity stacks and Venturi effects is like the INTAKE'S version of ---scavenging--- So its helping to rush more air into the combustion chambers at the SET time that the cam allows.

Theres so many things to list but I think you get what Im trying to say.

I said the exact same thing when I posted something on another intake thread about intakes----freeing up restriction----. Intake and exhuasts have very similar principals. The fact that it takes more energy to induct than to expel, just like your lungs when you breathe.

 

[jugbugz]

mayby that was a little harsh,my apologies im staying out of this thread now

good idea!

Jokeshopbeard: thanks!

 

[jugbugz]

so your telling people that the best thing to do is the stock box mod cos its free when you bought a j's racing kit,whats the point in giving advice when you don't do the same??????

errr, how do you know if I havent done the stock box mod? That was quite long ago and I also posted up the reason why I wanted the J's Racing intake ages ago. Is there a problem??

If I only give advice from what I've done, would everyone agree to it?

Some people like mild stuff and some heavy stuff, some cheap, some expensive, everything is layed out for you to choose. Is there still a problem with that??

I think you have a problem with your thinking.

 

[MFactory]

185bhp is flywheel horsepower. Wheel horsepower is approx. 17% less for a FWD which equates to around 154whp.

This 17% Drivetrain loss (or efficiency as you want to call it) is only affected, whether increase or decrease, by drivetrain modifications i.e tranny, flywheel, wheels etc

I/H/E modifications do not affect the drivetrain loss. Instead, these directly affect the engine efficiency i.e bhp

So can you gain power from an I/H/E? Of course you can. And if the dyno is measuring an increased whp, then for sure you have an increase in bhp also.

Cams are not the only way to increase engine power.

 

[jugbugz]

185bhp is flywheel horsepower. Wheel horsepower is approx. 17% less for a FWD which equates to around 154whp.

This 17% Drivetrain loss (or efficiency as you want to call it) is only affected, whether increase or decrease, by drivetrain modifications i.e tranny, flywheel, wheels etc

I/H/E modifications do not affect the drivetrain loss. Instead, these directly affect the engine efficiency i.e bhp

So can you gain power from an I/H/E? Of course you can. And if the dyno is measuring an increased whp, then for sure you have an increase in bhp also.

Cams are not the only way to increase engine power.

Yes, but your figures are wrong. 185bhp B16B is making 220bhp+ at the motor not crank.

Say we have 230bhp engine add the necessary accessories like water pump, oil pump, belts, pulleys, tranny, etc etc into the car, you get 185bhp.

185bhp transferred to the wheels is say 140whp.

if your 140whp increases, then your 185bhp increases and gets closer to the real figure of 220bhp.

Thats why removing your Aircon pump, power steering pump, etc etc will NET more whp meaning bhp increases too. But actual Engine HP remains the same.

This is the actual calculation method.

 

[MFactory]

My figures aren't wrong. 185bhp is the flywheel figure. I'm not talking about the "theoretical" engine power, because there is no way to measure that. Any engine power measurement is done at the flywheel. It is pointless to state that the engine makes 220bhp without all the accessories, because without the accessories, the engine won't run and if it doesn't run, then it would be 0bhp, not 220bhp.

Also, yes, the belt driven accessories will have an effect on the overall flywheel bhp. But the intake/header does not contribute to this. Try running an engine without an intake/header and I'll guarantee you the power will be a lot less than 185bhp.

 

[jugbugz]

My figures aren't wrong. 185bhp is the flywheel figure. I'm not talking about the "theoretical" engine power, because there is no way to measure that. Any engine power measurement is done at the flywheel. It is pointless to state that the engine makes 220bhp without all the accessories, because without the accessories, the engine won't run and if it doesn't run, then it would be 0bhp, not 220bhp.

Also, yes, the belt driven accessories will have an effect on the overall flywheel bhp. But the intake/header does not contribute to this. Try running an engine without an intake/header and I'll guarantee you the power will be a lot less than 185bhp.

Thats what I said, accessories like intake and headers promote flow. When manufacturers make and test engines, theres no flywheel to measure. Its something only they know how to calculate with their instruments. They also test and tune engines with the exhuast and intake intact thats it, nothing else. They then slowly add the pieces together bit by bit which they plan after.

Thats why it is impossible for us to measure engine hp because we only have a wheel dyno. It is said that most engine roughly require 40-50hp to run all the necessary accessories when installed onto the car.

That still doesnt change the fact that cams is the limit after you achieve highest efficiency.

 

[MFactory]

Erm, no. Manufacturers measure engine power on an engine dyno, which measures power from the crank i.e flywheel

if you know someone with an engine dyno (or who can setup their dynapack in that way), you can also measure your exact engine power.

THIS is the only way to measure engine power i.e at the crank/flywheel. If the power is not output from there, where the hell does it output from then?

As for cams being the only way to increase power, there are also other parameters called fueling/timing/compression etc. You don't need to change cams to increase power.

 

[jugbugz]

Sorry, the topic was about cams being the limit of air flow after high efficiency has been attained.

Anyway, if you dont believe me you can search or study it yourself. I know I have. Engine power is measured from the flywheel, but ofcourse without many other acessories that require HP to run them. Think about how many accessories are added for cooling and other things to run on a car? Thats where that 40-50 hp figure came from. If you minus them, then how much you get after?

Then theres stage 2 where you start calculating whp.

Erm, no. Manufacturers measure engine power on an engine dyno, which measures power from the crank i.e flywheel

if you know someone with an engine dyno (or who can setup their dynapack in that way), you can also measure your exact engine power.

THIS is the only way to measure engine power i.e at the crank/flywheel. If the power is not output from there, where the hell does it output from then?

As for cams being the only way to increase power, there are also other parameters called fueling/timing/compression etc. You don't need to change cams to increase power.

 

[MFactory]

It's not that I don't believe you. The general aspect of what you are saying (i.e parasitic losses) is true. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that.

If you read through my posts carefully though, you will notice all that I am doing is correcting the parts of your statements that are flawed. I'm not trying to change your mind regarding flow/losses etc

 

[jugbugz]

It's not that I don't believe you. The general aspect of what you are saying (i.e parasitic losses) is true. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that.

If you read through my posts carefully though, you will notice all that I am doing is correcting the parts of your statements that are flawed. I'm not trying to change your mind regarding flow/losses etc

no problems, the topic did start about cams being the physical limit of air flow after high efficiency has been attained. I'm just inputting a deeper view since theres some misundestandings over simple views.

 

[RagingAngel]

No jugbugz, I don't believe you have.

Here's an engine dyno with those mysterious accessories known as an intake, intake manifold and header attached.

Here's the chart it produced:

Max power at the crank aka flywheel aka bhp was at 9000rpm 295cHP.

On the dynojet it makes 242whp.

That's in the realm of 17-21% which is the accepted loss from going from crank to whp. This motor is an 85mm bore with an 87mm stroke. I'd like to see a B16B in stock form pump out the numbers even close to 250cHP.

The parasitic losses you speak of in terms of the water pump etc. is not 50bhp to run. In fact it's moot to make that point to begin with because you couldn't run the car as MFactory stated without this particular accessory to begin with.

No header? = burned valves.

Power steering? That's worth about 5whp on a dynojet

Air conditioning? That's not worth anything because the clutch is not engaged.

Crank pulley = fine you got me there, that's another 5-8whp since we're talking about a B-series VTEC specifically here. So 13whp. I'll give you 15whp to make it even multiply that by 17% and I'll make it an even 18bhp now.

But guess what? All that drag is taken into account already when it is run on the engine dyno. So here we are again, back at 185bhp.

 

[jugbugz]

Ok, I know this is getting a little out of hand. But I've found something to clear up a few things between everyone.

What your saying is also correct about HP measurement. But there were many changes in the way HP was measured on engines throughout the years. I've found some info about previous and late measurements that might explain the things I said. I didnt know it changed so much

I'm not sure which years did the newer and older measurements took place but it should explain enough.

There was infact instruments that measured the engines HP before the crank and before all the internal frictions. Then Bhp etc etc.

Sorry, you might need to click on the attached files to read. And zoom in with browser

Ragingangel: I saw the engine pic, I also stated that if you read carefully. Oil pump does require around 13hp+ to run.

Anyway, there were things that I learnt today so it was a good lesson, sorry to see things ended like that, hope you guys dont hate me now...