brake ducts for track duty


G

gsrek

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Jan 31, 2009
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got back from the track couple days ago. i must admit it was lots of fun once i got the track and lines down. but sad to say later in the day, during my 4th or 5th session, i started to experience brake fade about 3 laps in. i was really pushing the brakes trying to chase couple guys down. it really sucked having to pull in because i did not feel it was safe to continue on, especially when my front tires were slipping.

my setup:
brakes: integra gsr brakes front and rear (same as ek4?)
pads: hp plus pads all around
tires: re11 front and ra1 rear

i did some research on brake ducts for civics/integras and only found one place making ducts for 92~95 eg civics on twincam.net. i know for sure re11 are not enough for track duty espeically when pushing it hard. i am going to be upgrading to 5lug ek9 brake setup with more aggressive pads and tires for the track. but i was wondering if anyone is running brake ducts in their cars? care to share some information about how you routed it? what parts you used? feel any difference on the track?

thanks in advance.
 
User 'Timbliic' may use them, as he races, if your brakes are poor anyway then brake ducts may only get you a lap extra. If you are really into trackdays then a 4 pot kit is needed, I never get fade.
As you have stated the brakes and tyres on your car need upgrading. J's Racing do ducts I believe.
 
You need bigger brakes and better pads, not ducts

If it is the same setup as an EK4 then it's 262 front and 242 rear, same as the 96 spec integra also

My mate ran the standard size brakes on track with his 96 spec and they were shocking even with uprated pads

He now runs 282mm fronts off a 98 spec integra with endless CCX pads and decent discs, difference is night and day, in both instances running toyo R888 tyres

HP+ I have ran before and they are not good pads for track work, they fade too easy

If I were you, wouldn't bother with ducts, civic does not have anough power to even consider fitting these

bigger 282/262 setup with decent pads and a bigger 1" master cylinder will be an awesome setup
 
Forgot to add, with the tyres, what pressures were you running and were you checking the pressures straight after a session when the tyres were still hot?

Tyre pressures increase LOTS on track which will make the car slide about and induce lots of understeer, a pressure gauge is a worthy investment

As a starting point try and run the tyres at 28psi when hot and take it from there
 
stevenek9 - yes i know i need bigger brakes. i am planning to purchase a 5 lug conversion from a friend who's breaking his 9, which would give me the bigger 282/262 setup. he also throwing in a set of hp blue and 032r yokohama. i recently bought a brand new 98 gsr master cylinder, which i believe is 1". tire pressure wise i was running 30psi cold (but i drove to the track almost 100miles) and never checked it when hot. i'll make sure to check hot/cold pressure next time, that might help a lot with tires slipping.

brake ducts doesnt seem like a costy item to add. if its just two hoses routed to cool the rotor some what, i would seem like a worthy upgrade.
 
stevenEK9 said:
You need bigger brakes and better pads, not ducts

If it is the same setup as an EK4 then it's 262 front and 242 rear, same as the 96 spec integra also

My mate ran the standard size brakes on track with his 96 spec and they were shocking even with uprated pads

He now runs 282mm fronts off a 98 spec integra with endless CCX pads and decent discs, difference is night and day, in both instances running toyo R888 tyres

HP+ I have ran before and they are not good pads for track work, they fade too easy

If I were you, wouldn't bother with ducts, civic does not have anough power to even consider fitting these

bigger 282/262 setup with decent pads and a bigger 1" master cylinder will be an awesome setup
Click to expand...

Some very good advice from steven there mate, i totaly agree with everything he has said apart for the comment on the HP+ pads not being up to track work!:((

I used to run Hawk HP+ on the fronts of my EK9 & OEM rear pad's with Brembo groved discs front & OEM rear discs, braided lines & some decent fluid!

I also removed the dust sheilds/covers on the front to aid cooling:secret:

I never got any fade from this setup (I am by no means the "STIG" but i dont hang about eather!:p)

This was running R888 too:secret:

I am not trying to say that the Hawk HP+ are the best pads out there because i know there not, but they are pritty good on track IMO

stevenEK9 said:
Forgot to add, with the tyres, what pressures were you running and were you checking the pressures straight after a session when the tyres were still hot?

Tyre pressures increase LOTS on track which will make the car slide about and induce lots of understeer, a pressure gauge is a worthy investment

As a starting point try and run the tyres at 28psi when hot and take it from there
Click to expand...

Again some very good advice!:win:
 
Last edited:
Jimbob - Depends on the track I guess, some tracks will give your brakes more time to cool before being heavy on them again etc. But round knockhill mine were fading quite bad after about 6 laps out, in comparison I can do at least 15 laps with the current setup and not see any fade :shocked: Both instances was braking hard and late

Tyre pressures will help MASSIVELY with the slipping. I was sliding about at the last trackday as i started with the tyres at 30psi cold and after 1 session they were up at 40psi, that was with toyo R888 GG compound

IF you do fit ducts, remember that you need to mount them so they point right into the middle of the discs at the hubs, not onto the disc surface itself, helps dissipate the heat out the way and cool from the inside out through the vanes of the disc

Would not advise removing the splash gaurds from behind the front discs. Yes it does aid cooling, BUT it is also there as a protection if your CV boot fails......... brakes don't work especially good with grease all over them
 
stevenEK9 said:
Jimbob - Depends on the track I guess, some tracks will give your brakes more time to cool before being heavy on them again etc. But round knockhill mine were fading quite bad after about 6 laps out, in comparison I can do at least 15 laps with the current setup and not see any fade :shocked: Both instances was braking hard and late

Would not advise removing the splash gaurds from behind the front discs. Yes it does aid cooling, BUT it is also there as a protection if your CV boot fails......... brakes don't work especially good with grease all over them
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You have a good point about diffrent tracks being diffrent on brakes:nice:
Snetterton-
snetterton.gif


Knockhill-
knockhill.gif


I can see that Knockhill would be a little harder on the brakes, but also you are using Spoon calipers wich i would expect to be a bit harder on the brakes. (more heat)

"was braking hard and late" ant that the way we all brake on track:D

Like i said though i am not trying to say that the Hawk HP+ are the best pads, but i would not say they were "not" up to track work & for the price i do rate them!

I agree the splash gaurds are there for a reason, but if you look after your car & keep it well maintained you should not have any issues!

They could alway be put back on after track use though:secret:


stevenEK9 said:
Tyre pressures will help MASSIVELY with the slipping. I was sliding about at the last trackday as i started with the tyres at 30psi cold and after 1 session they were up at 40psi, that was with toyo R888 GG compound

IF you do fit ducts, remember that you need to mount them so they point right into the middle of the discs at the hubs, not onto the disc surface itself, helps dissipate the heat out the way and cool from the inside out through the vanes of the disc
Click to expand...
#

Again some very good advice!:bow:
 
never knew about taking dust shields off for brake cooling. but i have seen pin sized holes in cv boots and the mess they leave behind. that grease is no joke.

i still wanna see some pics of a proper brake duct setup. seen a couple searching around where they drilled holes in the dust shield or fab a dust shield with a hole to route the air, but all of them were pointed on the disc and not the center where the vanes in the rotor can dispense it evenly.
 
thillmap09.PNG


forgot to add a pic of the track. turn 15~1 goes up to 115+ mph slowing down to under 70 into turn 2, 13~14 goes 100+ and slowing to under 70, and 6~9 goes up to 100+ let off for turn 9 and down to under 70 again for 10. turn 10 was the one where i experienced brake fade. scary not be able to slow to the correct speed to enter the turn. by the time i was at the proper speed, i was way pass the braking markers. that caused me to make really wide turn and having to slow down more.
 
all ducting setups on eks are custom done, stuff is readily available from any motorsport shop (ducting/ties etc)
 
If you're looking for a 4 pot setup, I offer a couple of kits for the EK9/DC2 using Wilwoods.
Also Unless you are experiencing increased pedal travel with your brake kit don't be tempted to buy into the bigger bore master cylinder myth, fitting a bigger bore master cylinder does not improve braking, in fact in reduces hydraulic pressure at the calliper end and also reduces brake modulation (reduces the sensitivity of the brake pedal).
If you find the pedal is going further to the floor with a big brake kit then a bigger bore master cylinder may be required, but you will find if you do need a bigger master cylinder for you chosen brake setup you just might be counteracting any benefit of the bigger brake.
I ran the AP Pro 5000+ race calipers with 330mm two part AP disks on my FTO (bigger than most big brake kit callipers) and the standard master cylinder is just fine used the most severe environment for brakes .....
Brake master cylinder is definitely not a case of bigger = better.....
 
Just refering to the fact that EK9 uses a larger 1" MC as the piston size of the calipers is larger than the EK4 brakes which use a 15/16" one

Not a huge difference in size but it helps, I know that LOTS of people have fitted the larger MC due to long brake travel when going up to type R calipers

Also modulation more comes doewn to your OVERALL setup, not just what MC you use. You could have 2 identical setups with top end AP calipers/discs etc but in the end it comes down to pads.... Some pads give better initial bite so don't offer great modulation, these are generally pads with a high carbon content such as AP dixcel type Z or carbotechs (xp8/xp10). on the other hand cintered compounds have a harder compound so require a bit of preheat, i've found cintered pads to give fantastic heat resistance but also great modulation, not so on or off really

Not having a go at you FP, you clearly know your stuff, just a bit more input to the thread :nice:
 
I havent read all the posts but i would like to add,

My set up is:
OEM brake discs
Red stuff pads
Braided lines all round
MTF600 Brake fluid
Master stopper.

Completely stock at the rear.

I get no fade what so ever. At no track have i experienced it yet. Brands i was going round and round without stopping for ages and still the brakes kept stopping really well.

I see a quick mention of 4 pots. Even though i know this is a good upgrade as i have a willwood kit on my starlet, i dont think its necessary/compulsory to have even if you do track days.

My set up works well and to be fair i havent done much. Still OEM calliper and disc.

Note, im not saying that 4 pots wont work better as they will definitely, im just giving my input. If you have the money though then i would go 4 pot callipers.
 
No worries, didn't think you were. Just dont want people going to the hassle of changing the MC when it may be something much more straight forward causing their issue. It's a lot about personal preference as well when out on track. Some prefer the progressive feel you get from a longer pedal, others just want to touch the brakes and faceplant the windscreen.
I also prefer the harder compound when tracking the car, as the first lap or two I prefer to spend getting the car (and brakes) up to temp before going all out... as hard as it is to resist :)

If you're serious about tracking a car, you get so much more gains from getting some decent upgraded brakes and sorting the suspension out. I'd rather have a car that handled like a go-kart, like the one I'm currently building, that lets me brake at the last possible second than a car that goes a few mph quicker on the straight.

Intermediate upgrades are all well and good in the begining of getting out on track, like the latter calipers and disks from the likes of the DC2 or ATR, but they'll only go so far before you want more. A customer of mine upgraded to the same setup above - I actually sold him the setup from my car and now laps the Nurburgring all day long and his brakes no longer have overheating issues. Even with standard FTO GPX 2 pot calipers and 276mm disks he could only do 2 1/2 laps before needing to come in and cool them off. He then went upto a 4 pot Brembo with 316x28 disk and found he could do maybe 4 laps before they needed cooling off.

The 2 piece 330mm rotors also help a lot with the cooling, a larger diameter disk wont need to work as hard to slow the car down at the same rate.
 
I agree with Dan. Everyone is too quick to dismiss the standard parts on an EK9, they take A LOT to be beaten.

I've seen Dixon Cheng comment that after all his various brake caliper set-ups he's had on his race-car there wasn't really any difference, it was only down to the choice of pad and disk. F1 cars run brakes only slightly bigger than the EK9 but use carbon-carbon brake disks and pads and they are pretty much the pinnacle of motorsport performance.

I'm no expert, but once the brakes can lock the tyres so the tyres can no longer stop you without skidding then there is no more braking performance to be had, no matter the size of the calipers or how many pistons they use. The standard calipers are both progressive and strong, more than adequate to induce a skid no matter how hard they've been used (not that you want to) which is the maximum braking force which can be applied. With the carbone lorraine set-up we use on the rally-car they get VERY hard use and are brilliant from cold with no fade issues during a stage. The only issues we ever had were with rubbish pads that started to fade half way through a stage.

I would only upgrade the brakes if I wanted the looks, the feel and the bragging rights, not for increased performance.
 
A busy thread, I started oem on track, then I tried several disc/pad combos, in one year cost me a lot of money and I reached the limits of all of them, either I had fade or I wore them out real quick. I now run the Brembo race calipers, stopping is night and day above any of the combos, zero fade, ultimate last second stopping.
Anybody who gets a pax lap in mine will feel the difference, the kit was pricey but discs and pads last for so long - outlasting all of the combos put together, this is where you save the money.
Dixon seems to have purchased the same kit, maybe he doesnt want people to be put off buying the Dixcel combos, I dont know, there was a huge thread on this on itr-dc2 a while back. I honestly dont see how anybody could say that there isnt a noticeable difference over the 'best combo' to this kit, its a big difference, personal preference maybe, I easily outbrake just about everything with these.

I ran ducts on my 172, its not about the cars power, it all helps, but with the 4 pots now on the EK, just not needed.
 
Championship White said:
I've seen Dixon Cheng comment that after all his various brake caliper set-ups he's had on his race-car there wasn't really any difference, it was only down to the choice of pad and disk. F1 cars run brakes only slightly bigger than the EK9 but use carbon-carbon brake disks and pads and they are pretty much the pinnacle of motorsport performance.
Click to expand...
They're also 28mm thick and yes carbon-carbon disks which have far superior frictional, thermal and antiwarping properties, so nothing like normal, or even affordable upgraded road car disks :)

Championship White said:
I'm no expert, but once the brakes can lock the tyres so the tyres can no longer stop you without skidding then there is no more braking performance to be had, no matter the size of the calipers or how many pistons they use.
Click to expand...

Not entirely true. There's 2 factors when you lock the wheels. Either you run out of traction with the tyres; caused by poor road surface or poor compound tyres, or your pads cant slow your disk down any more and snatch at the disk causing a lockup.
Using better compound tyres will reduce the risk of the first happening, but there's many different ways of slowing the disk down more effiently than standard
Firstly is a better compound pad with a disk that doesn't run as hot. Once that's reached the limit you need to start looking at pad area (bigger pads), larger spread of pressure on the pad (more/bigger pistons) and moving the point of effort outwards from the centre of the disk.

Secondly is the disks. small disks will heat up faster than larger ones because there's less mass, or material to heat.
Larger disks take longer to heat up so will withstand more repeated stops, higher speed and increased loads.
Having larger disks also results in a longer torque arm. If you can move the calipers and pads further away from the centre of the disk you can increase the torque arm. By increaing the lever-arm distance you increase the braking force, which means you dont need to apply as much force to the pedal to obtain the same effect... and usually gives a firmer pedal feel.
It uses the same principle as a breaker bar. When you're fighting with that stubborn bolt on the car, you reach for the big dog. You end up cracking the nut much more easily and without slamming your hand into the inner arch when it does go as you're not applying as much force to get the same pressure on the bolt.

The more pistons you have in the caliper the more force you can apply to more parts of the pads, giving a more evenly spread pressure over the pad, rather than all on one area.

Championship White said:
I would only upgrade the brakes if I wanted the looks, the feel and the bragging rights, not for increased performance.
Click to expand...

Bigger brakes will improve the efficiency of the brakes, not just look pretty and give a better pedal feel. You'll be able to slow down quicker, later, more repeatedly and with a reduced chance of cooking your brakes
 
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