Whiteline ARB

[Edgar friendly]

I attacked a few bends on the weekend and I noticed the car felt a bit uneasy mainly from the front and there was a lot of body roll again from the front more than anywhere.

The car is lowered quite a fair bit on coilovers, it had been in for a 4 wheel alignment a few days before but they'd only been able to align the front and not the rear because the machine was playing up so it's getting the rear done tomorrow.

My suspension is in very good condition according to the guy who services my car so I know that's not causing any issues and with the front being aligned I'd have thought it would have handled better than it did. I could attack bends in my CRX VT and there would be zero body roll and EK9's are supposed to be great at handling, one of the best FWD cars they've made so perhaps investing in some uprated ARB's would be a wise move do you think?

Worth going for just the front for now, see if it eliminates the roll from the front or go for both front and rear?

 

[Kipper]

What coilovers are they, how old are they?

My dad had zeals on his DC2 when he got it, which is a very high end brand, and the two front one were burst which caused a fair bit of roll and sloppiness.

I can't think that a healthy EK9 with healthy suspension handling like this.

 

[Edgar friendly]

They're either Zeals or Daiyama coilovers, think they might be the latter according to one of the previous owners.

I've had them looked at and he said they're in great condition, nothing wrong with them at all. It's had a new N/S front lower ball joint and the RTA's are brand new too.

Maybe it will feel better after the alignment has been done today perhaps? So it shouldn't handle as bad as that then.

 

[Kozy]

First, roll isn't bad. Attempting to eliminate it will make you car handle worse.

Second, raise the ride height a bit and see if it improves. Will need another alignment though.

 

[Edgar friendly]

I'd have thought stiffening the car a bit would eliminate roll and that would be better no?

Can I ask why you say body roll isn't bad, just out of curiousity?

I don't really want to raise the ride height as I like the look of it lowered.

Cheers.

 

[saxophonias]

have you checked the tyre pressure? The alignment will only fix the toe in or out.

 

[Kozy]

Well, what do you hope to solve by reducing roll?

Most people think roll causes load transfer and that they want to reduce load transfer so they need to reduce the roll. That's wrong. Roll is a result of load transfer, reducing roll will not reduce load transfer, only the chassis' reaction to it.

The main aim of reducing roll (Aside from quicker transitions) is to stop the tyre alignments going to **** as the suspension moves. De-cambering the wheel relative to the road as the car rolls loses grip and sending the toe angles all over the place makes the handling unpredictable. The basic setup is good at dealing with this anyway as it is double wishbone all round, so the roll is not as big a compromise in terms of performance as it would be on say a VW, Peugeot etc equipped with solid beam and MacPherson setups.

This superior wheel control allows the use of softer springs, which improve grip and ride quality. Compare the EK9/DC2 to the FN2. Everyone moans about the ride quality in the FN2 and larger wheels aside (they do count for a lot of it) the reason is Honda had to increase the wheel rates because they fitted MacPhersons and a rear beam. **** wheel control requires high roll stiffness which ruins compliance. Good suspension does not, that's why it is good.

As soon as you start trying to reduce roll through stiffer springs and bars, you remove that compliance, which reduces grip and ruins your ride comfort. Unfortunately, because the standard kit was good anyway, you don't gain all that much in terms of wheel control. You can totally ruin the ride quality, have a car that skips over bumps and constantly loses traction on bumpy roads, and yet only performs marginally better than standard on a smooth road. It's a **** trade off, honestly it is.

Ride quality is important. We're not talking about old men wafting about in limos, but the suspension is designed to track the wheel over road imperfections whilst transferring the minimum force to the chassis. This in turn keeps the load on the tyre as constant as possible, which is good for grip. If you've got **** ride quality, then the suspension isn't doing it's job, and all that force you are feeling is being mirrored on the tyre contact patch and it is that load variation that diminishes grip.

Now, in your case, you've already lowered the car which has screwed with the wheel control. It's already stiffened, which has screwed with the ride quality. The reason you probably feel like it is still rolling, despite being lower and stiffer, is because you've moved the roll centres down by as much, possibly more than you moved the CG. This can make the chassis roll MORE, despite being lower.

If you don't want to raise the car, and still feel like you want less roll, then an ARB may give the desired effect. I'd recommend a rear 24mm bar, the front one is big enough and uprating it will only make it understeer.

 

[Edgar friendly]

Well, what do you hope to solve by reducing roll?

Most people think roll causes load transfer and that they want to reduce load transfer so they need to reduce the roll. That's wrong. Roll is a result of load transfer, reducing roll will not reduce load transfer, only the chassis' reaction to it.

The main aim of reducing roll (Aside from quicker transitions) is to stop the tyre alignments going to **** as the suspension moves. De-cambering the wheel relative to the road as the car rolls loses grip and sending the toe angles all over the place makes the handling unpredictable. The basic setup is good at dealing with this anyway as it is double wishbone all round, so the roll is not as big a compromise in terms of performance as it would be on say a VW, Peugeot etc equipped with solid beam and MacPherson setups.

This superior wheel control allows the use of softer springs, which improve grip and ride quality. Compare the EK9/DC2 to the FN2. Everyone moans about the ride quality in the FN2 and larger wheels aside (they do count for a lot of it) the reason is Honda had to increase the wheel rates because they fitted MacPhersons and a rear beam. **** wheel control requires high roll stiffness which ruins compliance. Good suspension does not, that's why it is good.

As soon as you start trying to reduce roll through stiffer springs and bars, you remove that compliance, which reduces grip and ruins your ride comfort. Unfortunately, because the standard kit was good anyway, you don't gain all that much in terms of wheel control. You can totally ruin the ride quality, have a car that skips over bumps and constantly loses traction on bumpy roads, and yet only performs marginally better than standard on a smooth road. It's a **** trade off, honestly it is.

Ride quality is important. We're not talking about old men wafting about in limos, but the suspension is designed to track the wheel over road imperfections whilst transferring the minimum force to the chassis. This in turn keeps the load on the tyre as constant as possible, which is good for grip. If you've got **** ride quality, then the suspension isn't doing it's job, and all that force you are feeling is being mirrored on the tyre contact patch and it is that load variation that diminishes grip.

Now, in your case, you've already lowered the car which has screwed with the wheel control. It's already stiffened, which has screwed with the ride quality. The reason you probably feel like it is still rolling, despite being lower and stiffer, is because you've moved the roll centres down by as much, possibly more than you moved the CG. This can make the chassis roll MORE, despite being lower.

If you don't want to raise the car, and still feel like you want less roll, then an ARB may give the desired effect. I'd recommend a rear 24mm bar, the front one is big enough and uprating it will only make it understeer.

Wow!

Many thanks for the detailed response, that's very interesting to know.

I didn't realise there would be so many factors determining the way a car behaves. You automatically assume that by lowering the car it will handle better.

I will definetly look at just uprating the rear ARB then if that's the case rather then shelling out on both.

Are there any other companies bar Whiteline who do decent ARB's?

 

[Kozy]

Yes there's so much stuff to consider, far more than I have posted here. Fortunately for us Honda considered it all in great detail, which is why the standard car was so good.

IMO it is extremely difficult to make genuine all round improvements to it as a road car. Very easy to make a small gain in one area and a significant loss in another, especially when people automatically assume that ride quality and handling are mutually exclusive.

I had an adjustable ASR rear bar. Be aware that although it is only 2mm larger than the EK9 bar, it is actually 40% stiffer torsionally. Add in the effects of a shorter arm with the adjustable bars, moving the pickup 1/2" inwards can take that up to 70% stiffer than an EK9 rear bar.

They are highly effective.

 

[Edgar friendly]

Yes there's so much stuff to consider, far more than I have posted here. Fortunately for us Honda considered it all in great detail, which is why the standard car was so good.

IMO it is extremely difficult to make genuine all round improvements to it as a road car. Very easy to make a small gain in one area and a significant loss in another, especially when people automatically assume that ride quality and handling are mutually exclusive.

I had an adjustable ASR rear bar. Be aware that although it is only 2mm larger than the EK9 bar, it is actually 40% stiffer torsionally. Add in the effects of a shorter arm with the adjustable bars, moving the pickup 1/2" inwards can take that up to 70% stiffer than an EK9 rear bar.
They are highly effective.

Exactly,

Honda are the masters of producing great handling cars from the factory that don't need much tweaking.

What I didn't realise was that messing around with things can really interfere with your setup and the way the car handles from the off. I've seen many posts off members who say their car handles extremely well on the standard shocks and springs and comfort isn't then compromised either.

I found some info on the ASR one you've mentioned, seems I can pick one up for around $170, maybe a tad more so definitely going to purchase one in the near future and see it helps, after reading your feedback I'm sure it will.

Can I ask, would the car need aligning again if fitting this bar?

Thanks again for your help Kozy!

Marc

 

[Kozy]

The trouble is people have a very subjective view of 'handling'. I went out with one guy who swore blind his Golf VR6 handled amazingly. It was wound down to the ground on cheap ebay coilovers, I swear it was actually riding on the bumpstops the ride was so bad. He couldn't take a long straight local road at any more than 45mph where I could punt my EK4 down it at over double the NSL. (Yea I admitted speeding on a forum. Bite me.)

Funny idea of 'great handling' when your car is that unstable, but I guess to some the fact that it didn't roll meant it felt like handled well, even though it really didn't.

Luckily, I don't think anyone is under any illusions about the capability of a standard Type R. Sometimes things do get clouded though, when people swap out 120k mile suspension for brand new coilovers. Now, new coilovers vs new OEM suspension... I've seen threads where people have done it, and they swear blind that the OEM stuff is incredible and the coilovers are garbage.

No alignment required for ARB changes.

 

[Edgar friendly]

I read a thread a few weeks back with regards to the OEM set up and it made me for a short while want to get an OEM setup to see what it would be like but I couldn't contemplate increasing the ride height.

TBH though my ride is very harsh, too harsh really and in time I will get something with a bit of a softer set up. Possibly looking at a Koni/Bilstein + Ground control set up or something along those lines but that won't happen until I have more funds.

I will start with this stiffer anti roll bar for now and hope that tides things over for me for short term until I get a softer less harsher ride.

Like you said someone's view of a car that "handles" better can be totally different to someone else's view and is very subjective.

In saying that I went out in a lad from work's Skoda Fabia VRS, the TDI model the other day and it had so much more grip than my EK9, albeit I was sat in the passenger seat but the car felt so grippy and he was really throwing it into some bends. It's had no suspension modifications whatsoever, completely standard handling wise, it has been re-mapped and it was flown.

It was a nice ride too, no crashes, bangs or rattles and I appreciate it's a much newer car but still. Felt horrible getting back in mine after.

 

[Edgar friendly]

Forgot to say too.

Had the car fully 4 wheel aligned, felt instantly smoother especially on the motorway coming back.

Haven't had the chance to take her on to some open roads just yet but hoping to do so over the weekend if I can.

But yeah, feels better than before for sure.