Which Upgraded Calipers?

[Kozy]

The difference is the Wilwood setup has a larger piston area than the Legend/EK9 calipers which will already give a longer pedal feel, what you dont want to do is fit the 1" MC and find the travel is too long.
The only way you're going to find out is try it with the 15/16" and see how the pedal feels, but from my understanding swapping to a larger bore MC will only make it longer/more progressive.

Other way round, bigger MC means a harder, shorter pedal and less line pressure.

 

[FreakyParts]

Aye, that's what I meant head full of cold at the minute

 

[Kozy]

Double post. Think my phones goin a bit batty.

 

[FreakyParts]

It got a cold too?

 

[Kozy]

Probably, it just called my boss of it's own accord whilst I was chatting to the OH about boobs. That's gonna be akward tomorrow morning...

 

[Marco]

Thanks guys

For now i will install with my oem 15/16" and see how e feels and later i will try large 1" EK9/DC2

 

[VTEC-334]

Hi guys sorry to hijack the thread but it throught it will save me from starting a new one.

Bit of a stupid question but was just wonder if you buy calipers that are designed to be used with say a 300mm disc can you then run it with a 282mm disc if you have custom carriers made up?

 

[Kozy]

Yes, it's essentially the reverse of what MeisterR do with their big brake kits, which is to make a 262mm caliper fit a 286mm disc, but it's a lot of work for not a lot of gain to go the other way.

 

[VTEC-334]

Thanks for the reply Kozy.
Ye can see that it will be lot of work, i probably just go down the legend route only been looking at 4 pot calipers as you can get some fairly cheap off some cars.

One last question can you run a thinner disc then what the caliper was designed for? So instead of using say a 24mm disc could you use a 21mm (or what ever width we run) with out much trouble or would you risk the piston falling out or something like that?

 

[FreakyParts]

You can get some fairly cheap ones yes, but by the time you've stripped and serviced them, had some custom brackets made etc, you may as well have gone for an off-the-shelf 4 pot kit, as it'll be guaranteed to fit, and comes with a warranty.
I personally wouldn't say running thinner discs on wider calipers is a good idea as yes, when your pads are low, you can run the risk of pushing the piston past the seal.

Brakes are not something you want to be cutting corners on and cobbling something together that's not designed for the job, it'll only end in tears

 

[Kozy]

Brakes are not something you want to be cutting corners on and cobbling something together that's not designed for the job, it'll only end in tears (and/or death/serious injury)

Good advice right there.

 

[VTEC-334]

Cheers again guys.
i know its not a place to cut corners as i said i probably go down the legend route unless i get some extra cash from some where then freakyparts will be getting a pm for some willwoods. Was just thinking about alteratives

 

[FreakyParts]

I should have a pair in stock in the next week or so

 

[Kozy]

Cheers again guys.
i know its not a place to cut corners as i said i probably go down the legend route unless i get some extra cash from some where then freakyparts will be getting a pm for some willwoods. Was just thinking about alteratives

In all honesty, if you are considering Legends I would just get regular MG 282s, the Legends don't really offer anything extra over the single piston calipers other than increased weight.

 

[VTEC-334]

I should have a pair in stock in the next week or so

If i win the lottery i be straight round

In all honesty, if you are considering Legends I would just get regular MG 282s, the Legends don't really offer anything extra over the single piston calipers other than increased weight.

Ok so they dont really add that much more then even with the extra piston?

Got my numbers wrong earlier aswell was thinking about using sierra cosworth 2wd 4 pot calipers which are actually 283mm and 24mm/23mm wide which is almost the same size as the mg discs i have to use which are 282mm and 25/23mm so not that far out.
See what you mean about price,work and safety though, luckly my dad is good at and enjoys doing fab works so he could make me a set of carriers for very little cost, dont know might research it abit more unless people on here think it is a big

 

[Kozy]

Ok so they dont really add that much more then even with the extra piston?

No not really, the piston area is nigh on identical to the single piston caliper, and it's the area that is the major factor in the performance of the caliper. Since the discs are the same there is no benefit in terms of heat dissipation either.

Got my numbers wrong earlier aswell was thinking about using sierra cosworth 2wd 4 pot calipers which are actually 283mm and 24mm/23mm wide which is almost the same size as the mg discs i have to use which are 282mm and 25/23mm so not that far out.

What are you looking to achieve here? Honestly, if you are chasing performance I just wouldn't bother with trying to graft calipers off another marque on to your car, it's seldom worth the effort and can often make the braking worse if you don't fully research everything. The MG setup is plenty powerful enough and for the cost and bolt on simplicity, IMHO it cannot be beaten for value.

If you are simply after the aesthetic upgrade, then graft away!

 

[Kozy]

Haha, cheers Tama!

When upgrading brakes there's normally 3 main things we seek to improve

• Shorter stopping distances
• Better thermal capacity
• More/less pedal effort

Secondary considerations

• Weight
• Response
• Maintenance
• Looks

Which is the main goal?

 

[VTEC-334]

Sorry guys kinda rule number one saying what you want to achive

Well the cars not finished yet but it will be a daily driver and used on the track, over all i want better stopping distance and the brakes to last longer before they start to fade. Really the pads and fluid will solve this and that's the main thing to get sorted.

As i said just thinking of alteratives to the normal big brake upgraded people do. but you guys know what your on about espeically Kozy, so Im happy to listen and learn

 

[Kozy]

OK so stopping distances and fade resistance are key, which is the usual targets, and the idea is to improve both while not screwing up the pedal. Sounds easy, but it's actually not that straightforward.

The key factor in fade resistance is obviously the size of the rotor, the bigger the disc, the more heat it can disperse.

The key factor in stopping distance is tyres. If you have crap tyres, you could have £5ks worth of carbon carbon discs with half metre diameter rotors and 12 pot calipers and it'd all be as much use as a chocolate turbocharger. Once the brake force exceeds, in it's most basic form, the load on the tyre multiplied by the co-efficient of friction, the tyre wll slide and the retardation drops significantly. Tyres stop the car, brakes just generate and disperse heat.

The secondary factor in stopping distances is bias. Related to the above, the fastest way to stop is with all four tyres at 100% of their capacity. If you chuck massive front brakes on and leave the rears stock, then you still hit the same limit when the front tyres lock, but the rears are doing less than they could be. Some people argue that it doesn't make that much of a difference, but by my maths some of the common Honda upgrades can increase stopping distances from 70mph by up to 5 meters. Obviously, it's your call on whether that matters. I say it does...

So, first step is to upgrade the front rotor size, lets say the usual 282mm swap, to give better heat capacity. In doing so you will change the bias, shifting it forwards, which will increase your stopping distance. Next thing you'd probably do is stick in some high performance pads. Not only do these work at high temperature, but they also provide a higher friction co-efficient. More force, more front bias, longer stopping distances.

The way to deal with this is to upgrade the rears to match. If you've swapped on the 282s, then the matching 260mm rears are the perfect solution as you would expect being a factory option. This will actually shift your bias backwards from the stock EK4 as the 260mm setup is actually 38% more powerful than the stock EK4 rear brakes, where the front 282s are only 21% better. This bias gives the factory equipped cars (DC2/EK9) better fade resistance and stopping distances over the smaller braked cars, where doing the front upgrade alone would see us falling short of both targets.

Now as far other brake upgrades, you need to consider what the options are offering you. First thing to remember is that more pistons does not automatically mean more power, and even if it does, due to the bias effects, it's not always desireable. The idea of grafting on cheaply availabe factory fit four pots from other models is attractive, but often when you start researching the fundamentals such as piston area, effective radius and rotor surface area, you find that they will more often than not fall short on one of the three major considerations.

Bearing this in mind, then taking into account the extra work of grafting a hybrid brake setup on to your car, with all the uncertainty that custom parts can bring and you really begin to question the point when there are cheap, bolt on options which are proven to work better in all aspects from the factory.

My recommendations for EK4s:

• MG 282/262 setup
• EP3 300mm fronts with 262 rears
• Spoon calipers / 262 rears
• Big moolah Brembo/AP/Alcon race setups with 262 rears.

This is not to say that other options are pointless, it's just to highlight that their are clear objectives with brakes, and why spend more money and effort on setups that fall short on one or more of the primary concerns.

You'll notice that no matter what front upgrade, the 262 rears are suitable. This is because in terms of outright force, the 282s are pretty damn powerful and none of the upgrade options above offer a significant step up. This said, under no circumstances do I recommend keeping the 240mm rears with any front upgrade, they are useless. I did this with a 282mm swap and it was so crap I've now reverted back to the stock 262s as I never had a problem with fade in the first place to warrant an upgrade!

 

[Black Demon EK9]

I can supply the calipers with whatever piston size is preffered.
The 1.75" pistons give a larger overal area than the OEM calipers, which translate into a slightly longer pedal.
This in turn does give you a better range of pedal movement.

The Midilite setup is very good on the EK9, and it uses the OEM 282mm front discs so keeps the costs down.

If you can stretch to it, we can do the Superlite kit, which uses a larger caliper, larger pads and thicker 32mm thick 2 piece discs with aluminium bells. This setup is excellent if you do a lot of track days as the discs are much better at soaking up the heat. You just need a wheel with a decent offset to allow the clearance behind it.

The AP kits out there although are very very good (I've used them on my own cars), but I find it difficult to justify the 2x price tag of them over a set of similar Wilwood brakes.
They dont offer 2x the performance, 2x the life or 1/2 the stopping distances so unless you're a brand snob the better value Wilwood kits would be perfect for you.

on front i have a stop tech 328 mm rotor with st40 caliper, i need a good braking on the rear for my race car, can you help me to see if you have something on stock? mail me please marco.grignon@gmail.com wheels 17 x 9 offset 22