Remove ABS for track or not?


oifovo

oifovo

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Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Messages
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Hey guys,

I've started converting my 9 into a pretty much track day exclusive car and I'm thinking about removing the ABS. The pros I can see are:
- It will allow me to fit a proportioning valve
- It will make the car lighter
- One less thing that can go wrong

Now from my experience ABS in general as most safety features is set up so that it cuts in a little bit too soon rather than little bit too late and I don't really like that. I just want to hear from people who did remove it or tried a Honda without ABS on track and whether they ever regretted it. I grew up driving old Skodas and Opels none of which had ABS and it was OK (well except for that one time when I landed with my grandads Nova on the roof :D ). I wouldn't even consider removing ABS for a daily as I can appreciate what it does and what's its purpose but for track I reckon I could do without it. As always, I appreciate anything you have to tell me on the topic! Thanks
 
hey mate, ther was a thread about this a few days ago. i have mine removed and after getting used to its great but you have to be more careful on the brakes, with abs you just stand on them!
 
ted777 said:
hey mate, ther was a thread about this a few days ago. i have mine removed and after getting used to its great but you have to be more careful on the brakes, with abs you just stand on them!
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Thanks mate, I've been reading thru all the posts I could find about ABS but all I could find was how-to's and not much in terms of discussion on pros/cons. I guess if I remove it I will start with my crappy old T1R's so that if I make a nice flat spot on them it will not matter too much. I really like the idea of being more in control. This also means that if I screw up and end up off track I can blame myself and myself only :D Another thing I am thinking about is electric p/s with progressive function, but that's me thinking too far ahead now...
 
As ted777 mentioned it takes some getting used to. For a novice like myself the ABS can come in very handy on the track when you leave the braking too late and need to stand on the brakes and turn in

I tried it on my old ek9 by removing the abs fuse for a few laps and found myself locking up once or twice when braking from around 115 to roughly 60
 
i had problems when i first removed it. quite a saving in weight by removing it and good excuse to put a brake bias valve in beside u.
 
SPek9 said:
As ted777 mentioned it takes some getting used to. For a novice like myself the ABS can come in very handy on the track when you leave the braking too late and need to stand on the brakes and turn in

I tried it on my old ek9 by removing the abs fuse for a few laps and found myself locking up once or twice when braking from around 115 to roughly 60
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Hmmm, that's a good point! It actually crossed my mind that maybe I should disable it first and see how I like it before hacking it out. I came across an interesting fact when I was googling on the subject - a 2004 Ford Focus WRC car had ABS fitted, so it obviously works even in pure race cars. No doubt they had it tuned so that it would not kick in too soon tho... Speaking of weight saving - how heavy is it? Any idea?
 
with careful selection of brake pads with a suitable coefficient of friction to suit your setup and driving style + suitably sticky tyres, you will not lock up

the problem is most people forget the rear brakes and only upgrade the fronts....... you end up over working the front brakes as the rears won't have enough bite to do much, hence lock up everywhere. back in the day i ran ap dixcel type Z's on the front with oem rear (my first brake upgrade on the car) and the ABS was kicking in like crazy, rear end also felt light under heavy braking since the rear brakes had no chance

i ended up running 300mm brembo touring car 4 pots with AP fixcel full race pads (same disc and pad combo they run on the buddyclub time attack DC5), i would stamp on the brakes very late on track, never had issues with lock ups at all

the feel of the car without ABS is brilliant, removing the ABS fuse will never truely replicate it as you are still having to pump the fluid through the additional ABS lines


i ran mine with the OEM 40/40 non ABS prop valve (readily available from the states), then i plumbed in a more simple setup with a bias adjuster in the car. with the bias adjuster it helped fine tune the brakes (too much front bias can leave the back end feeling light, crank a bit to the back and what a difference), although for most applications the OEM 40/40 setup is ideal, with that setup you can retain the standard rear hard lines and only have to make up 4 new lines - 2 from MC to prop and 2 from the prop to the front flexi's
 
oifovo said:
Hmmm, that's a good point! It actually crossed my mind that maybe I should disable it first and see how I like it before hacking it out. I came across an interesting fact when I was googling on the subject - a 2004 Ford Focus WRC car had ABS fitted, so it obviously works even in pure race cars. No doubt they had it tuned so that it would not kick in too soon tho... Speaking of weight saving - how heavy is it? Any idea?
Click to expand...

not that heavy, the ABS pump is only about 5kg or so, the ABS ecu and wiring combined maybe another kg or so

it's more about feel

rally cars and such also run power steering, however both the ABS and power steering are adjustable so they can fine tune how much assist their is based on what sort of stage it is - they also run pedal box setups which allow fine tune of the front to rear balance etc
 
My last ej didnt have abs and my ek9 doesnt, you learn to control how heavy your breaking is so you wont lock up. On the ring i never had a single lockup running ad08s and meister r brake kit and i did some heavy breaking from high speed.

On the road abs can help but youll soon start modulating the brakl force and pumping the pedal to avoid/ get out of scary moments.
 
stevenEK9 said:
the problem is most people forget the rear brakes and only upgrade the fronts....... you end up over working the front brakes as the rears won't have enough bite to do much, hence lock up everywhere. back in the day i ran ap dixcel type Z's on the front with oem rear (my first brake upgrade on the car) and the ABS was kicking in like crazy, rear end also felt light under heavy braking since the rear brakes had no chance
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Good advice! :nice:

The ABS computer monitors wheel speeds, if you fit an unbalanced brake system it senses a bigger speed differential front to rear and assumes an imminent lock up, so the system triggers prematurely and reduces braking performance.

ABS is great with stock brakes, but for a track car as soon as you start going with uprated kit, even just aggressive pads, best get rid of it as it will not be working optimally.
 
I wouldn't recommend upgrading them, not that there is much scope beyond pad choices, just make sure front end upgrades do not unbalance the setup.

Contrary to popular belief, you do NOT need more power when you fit bigger brakes, you need more heat dissipation.
 
OK, I am not planning on replacing the brakes, at least not for now, but I will be getting agressive pads (front and rear) and some semi slicks are also on the cards, so I THINK my problem will be brake overheating rather than the possibility of wheel lockup. Really appreciate all the help guys!
 
stevenEK9 said:
not that heavy, the ABS pump is only about 5kg or so, the ABS ecu and wiring combined maybe another kg or so
Click to expand...
Lighter than that even... only 3.4Kg wet!

ABSWeight.jpg



Purists will say remove ABS for the track, with the EK9 I'd say leave it in. With well-matched brakes/pads you're unlikely to be outbraked (especially in the wet), and you remove the risk of damaging tyres with a lock-up. And it's a good safety option for the road.

Also, with your brake pads, a good option for the rear is something like Endless NC44, developed specifically for the rears in lightweight FWD cars like ours. It has lower initial bite to lessen the chance of the rear wheels locking, which you will get if you put a too aggressive compound in.
 
If you are running ABS now leave it in and upgrade the pads, if that is even needed. Try your setup stock first and make small adjustments after a good track day. If you feel the ABS is interacting more than needed, you will know, then think about turning it off or removing at that stage.

Ive never run ABS but have use a prelude with it and did not like it even on street use. It was turning on way to much for my liking.

My track only civic coupe is raced out, no ABS, have yet to fully lock up my fronts [knock on wood]. I know that they can lock up as I can feel what the brakes are doing via the pedal. Ive turned back the brake booster a tad and can feel everything going on now with the brakes.

Anywho--ease yourself into the change if you are at all concerned about anything, but no need to be concerned really, just need to get better acclimated with a new setup.

sorry for the rant.
 
If you remove the ABS I will buy your front and rear sensors for the right price.
 
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