Lifting the inside rear.


webartie said:
take the quickest FWD race car in Ireland currently, the ex demo J's racing CRX. amazing car... but doesnt cock a wheel and runs softer springs rear.

so i suppose its down to driver style and setup... either way you will need testing!!!!!
Click to expand...

This is probably the setup balance I am aiming for as it is what I consider to be fastest, but I think the key here is that there is no 'right' answer. Either way can be fast as proved by both the Japs and the Americans, but I think personally for me, keeping that rear wheel on the ground is the way to go on track.

Obviously with the way you throw a car around at an autox it is inevitable under some conditions, the car transitions through the three phases of a corner so quickly there is no time for the suspension to settle and so it is really rather hard to model what is happening. The way I see it, lifting makes you understeer, drive traction excluded, but you guys say it doesn't. This interests me and I would like to understand how this works as I like to explore these things myself rather than just taking someone elses word for it. I appreciate you condradicting my findings so far as it tells me that they are inconclusive (I expected they would be). If you didn't, I'd accept what I had found as being correct when it was not.

Testing as you say, is the best, but is not an option open to me. I have a tarmac autotest with 6x 60 second runs once every 6 weeks or so through the winter, and I live an hours boat journey and three hours from the closest race circuit.

Figuring this stuff out on paper is testing to me. :)
 
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Kozy said:
This is probably the setup balance I am aiming for as it is what I consider to be fastest, but I think the key here is that there is no 'right' answer. Either way can be fast as proved by both the Japs and the Americans, but I think personally for me, keeping that rear wheel on the ground is the way to go on track.

Obviously with the way you throw a car around at an autox it is inevitable under some conditions, the car transitions through the three phases of a corner so quickly there is no time for the suspension to settle and so it is really rather hard to model what is happening. The way I see it, lifting makes you understeer, drive traction excluded, but you guys say it doesn't. This interests me and I would like to understand how this works as I like to explore these things myself rather than just taking someone elses word for it. I appreciate you condradicting my findings so far as it tells me that they are inconclusive (I expected they would be). If you didn't, I'd accept what I had found as being correct when it was not.

Testing as you say, is the best, but is not an option open to me. I have a tarmac autotest with 6x 60 second runs once every 6 weeks or so through the winter, and I live an hours boat journey and three hours from the closest race circuit.

Figuring this stuff out on paper is testing to me. :)
Click to expand...

:nice:

dont forget about tyre/tire pressure in your calculations.
 
Again, beyond the scope at the moment, I am focusing purely on steady state load transfers.

The guys over on Honda-Tech in this thread seem to agree somewhat with my theory, and they know a hell of a lot more than I understand currently! I doubt you can be bothered to read through the whole lot, but the physics is kind of there to agree (there are still disputes on the finer details of longitudinal load transfer, jacking forces etc) but essentially, once the rear lifts, load transfer at the rear is maxed, any more comes from the front which results in less grip and the car will begin to tighten. This is not to say it suddenly ploughs into understeer, there is still an overall bias of oversteer, just to a lesser degree than if the rear was still contributing to the roll resistance.

Again, this is not to say it isn't fastest for some people/cars/tracks of course, but in terms of outright steady state lateral grip, lifting a wheel appears to be bad...
 
Kozy said:
This is probably the setup balance I am aiming for as it is what I consider to be fastest, but I think the key here is that there is no 'right' answer. Either way can be fast as proved by both the Japs and the Americans, but I think personally for me, keeping that rear wheel on the ground is the way to go on track.

Obviously with the way you throw a car around at an autox it is inevitable under some conditions, the car transitions through the three phases of a corner so quickly there is no time for the suspension to settle and so it is really rather hard to model what is happening. The way I see it, lifting makes you understeer, drive traction excluded, but you guys say it doesn't. This interests me and I would like to understand how this works as I like to explore these things myself rather than just taking someone elses word for it. I appreciate you condradicting my findings so far as it tells me that they are inconclusive (I expected they would be). If you didn't, I'd accept what I had found as being correct when it was not.

Testing as you say, is the best, but is not an option open to me. I have a tarmac autotest with 6x 60 second runs once every 6 weeks or so through the winter, and I live an hours boat journey and three hours from the closest race circuit.

Figuring this stuff out on paper is testing to me. :)
Click to expand...

what car u using for autotesting? my competes in it, with this application a cocked raer wheel might help the oversteer around a pilon?
no?

on track it might be different
 
EK4, 352F/308R stock 26mm front bar, 24mm ASR rear bar on full hard.

My car doesn't lift, it comes close, but the rear wheel just about stays on the ground. Going by my calculations, that is the best balance and I have no trouble rotating around hairpins at all.
 
Not at present, this is my daily driver and our roads here are nothing short of awful, so 350lb is more than enough. If it became a track only car then definately! That said I haven't been on track since I put this suspension on, so I'll have to see what it is like. Won't be until Brands Hatch in December though...
 
Kozy said:
Again, beyond the scope at the moment, I am focusing purely on steady state load transfers.

The guys over on Honda-Tech in this thread seem to agree somewhat with my theory, and they know a hell of a lot more than I understand currently! I doubt you can be bothered to read through the whole lot, but the physics is kind of there to agree (there are still disputes on the finer details of longitudinal load transfer, jacking forces etc) but essentially, once the rear lifts, load transfer at the rear is maxed, any more comes from the front which results in less grip and the car will begin to tighten. This is not to say it suddenly ploughs into understeer, there is still an overall bias of oversteer, just to a lesser degree than if the rear was still contributing to the roll resistance.

Again, this is not to say it isn't fastest for some people/cars/tracks of course, but in terms of outright steady state lateral grip, lifting a wheel appears to be bad...
Click to expand...

Totally understand...let us know your findings please. :)
...and i also agree with no right no wrong in this...personal preference really.
:)
 
Did this in my STD 9 last weekend, got a cracking photo of it too!
 
Lets see then! :nice:

Did you 'feel' it happen? What What conditions, assuming turn in under heavy braking?

Here's mine getting as close to lifting...

QC-85.jpg
 
Similar to mine, it's just about still on the ground, as I would expect a stock EK9 to be. :)
 
Can someone delete my 2 previous post on this thread plus this one?
 
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