Brakes adequate Enough for 270

[Rich777]

What's the purpose of the car?

 

[leeK9]

road car i cant see any need to upgrade brakes

a good set of pads though would always be beneficial

just because you have 270bhp doesnt mean you need better brakes....your still doing the same speed limit on the road as you were before

 

[Jake123]

road car i cant see any need to upgrade brakes

a good set of pads though would always be beneficial

just because you have 270bhp doesnt mean you need better brakes....your still doing the same speed limit on the road as you were before

But your getting there a lot quicker and therefore braking again sooner,
The logic of same speed on the road is not one to go by...

 

[Kozy]

You need much more disc mass than the 262s offer.

Time to break out the design spreadsheet for some temperature estimates.

Says here that a standard EK4 at 160bhp will generate rotor temperatures of 357°C/288°C F/R going from 100mph to 0 ten times. That will probably be suffering brake fade unless you've got some decent pads.

Same car with 300bhp (should be about 270whp right?) will do 483°/485°. That rear temperature will almost certainly fade the rear brakes and send the bias forwards, heating up the fronts further. It's worth paying attention to that heat balance.

Even a basic 282mm/260mm swap will drop that back into 338°/294°.

260mm is really the biggest you can go on the rear unless you want a custom job.

EP3 300mm brakes would be 243°/298°
ATR 300mm - 204°/283°
MeisterR 286mm - 316°/307°
298mm Wilwoods with 1.5" pistons - 209°/286°
Brembo Touring 300mm - 192°/280°.

I haven't adjusted the bias on any of these, certainly some balance changes to be achieved by setting that up properly for any given setup. Bear in mind that any of the big brakes will have front bias, that will heat up the front brakes more. Adjusting the bias backwards will increase the rear temperatures further, which can put you at risk of rear axle fade and unpredictable bias as a result.

 

[Darragh]

Assuming the car is for road use , you will never do ten full standing 100-0mph stops .. maybe one emergency stop.

 

[Kozy]

It's a tool for comparison, that's all. Even 100mph to 50mph would only drop the temperatures by a few percent.

 

[Darragh]

And thats cool , but in reality you still wont do enough braking on the road to where fade becomes apparent at least on quality brake pads.

 

[Kozy]

Maybe, maybe not. Only the OP can really say for certain.

One thing's for certain, everyone hates on the small disc Civic/Teg brakes like they absolutely have to have the big brakes to handle their driving, even with standard power.

I had standard brakes on my EK4 and never had an issue, but that's not to say others didn't.

 

[tama666]

And thats cool , but in reality you still wont do enough braking on the road to where fade becomes apparent at least on quality brake pads.

Nor do you need 270hp in a civic to travel public roads.

 

[tama666]

One thing's for certain, everyone hates on the small disc Civic/Teg brakes like they absolutely have to have the big brakes to handle their driving, even with standard power.

The smaller the engine, the more need for larger brakes. Thinking race here tho. lol

 

[1.4POWER]

Nor do you need 270hp in a civic to travel public roads.

The smaller the engine, the more need for larger brakes. Thinking race here tho. lol

Ah sure why not, Nice to have a bit of power, not that it does be used enough but still its fun. And when we have drag days i can race what i drove up in

Nor do you need 270hp in a civic to travel public roads.

You need much more disc mass than the 262s offer.

Time to break out the design spreadsheet for some temperature estimates.

Says here that a standard EK4 at 160bhp will generate rotor temperatures of 357°C/288°C F/R going from 100mph to 0 ten times. That will probably be suffering brake fade unless you've got some decent pads.

Same car with 300bhp (should be about 270whp right?) will do 483°/485°. That rear temperature will almost certainly fade the rear brakes and send the bias forwards, heating up the fronts further. It's worth paying attention to that heat balance.

Even a basic 282mm/260mm swap will drop that back into 338°/294°.

260mm is really the biggest you can go on the rear unless you want a custom job.

EP3 300mm brakes would be 243°/298°
ATR 300mm - 204°/283°
MeisterR 286mm - 316°/307°
298mm Wilwoods with 1.5" pistons - 209°/286°
Brembo Touring 300mm - 192°/280°.

I haven't adjusted the bias on any of these, certainly some balance changes to be achieved by setting that up properly for any given setup. Bear in mind that any of the big brakes will have front bias, that will heat up the front brakes more. Adjusting the bias backwards will increase the rear temperatures further, which can put you at risk of rear axle fade and unpredictable bias as a result.

Good read you seem to be a man with lots of knowledge and understanding,
Do pads have heat reading's?

Also what pads would people recommend for my use eg(daily driven, and track use) defiantly don't want squiky brakes.

 

[Kozy]

Yes they do, here's some.

Carbone Lorraine

Ferodo

Mintex M1144

Mintex M1155

Mintex M1166

Willwood

Pagid
Take this with a large pinch of salt, pagid do not provide accurate friction coefficient graphs with numbers on them as they don't want you to compare them with other people products, the curves on their graphs vary a bit depending on where you find them, the numbers on the scale are based on a table showing (among other things) friction at 300C on the same page as the graph.

I would not however put total faith in my numbers to be specifying pads from. It's only an educated guess for use as a comparison tool, the actual disc temperatures can well exceed what the spreadsheet says.

 

[Topher-EK9]

Thanks to those who helped out the OP who actually have experience and or Knowledge..

others should think first and read the thread entirely before spreading quite frankly Dangerous information..

 

[Darragh]

Thanks to those who helped out the OP who actually have experience and or Knowledge..

others should think first and read the thread entirely before spreading quite frankly Dangerous information..

Funny that....

 

[Rich777]

Thanks to those who helped out the OP who actually have experience and or Knowledge..

others should think first and read the thread entirely before spreading quite frankly Dangerous information..

I don't know what he means by "track use". I'm getting the impression he could mean drag racing, which if so, all he'll need is a pad upgrade at the most. 270bhp isn't anything that impressive....

I've run higher than that with just uprated pads and so have many others.

 

[Kozy]

On an EK9 though?

The 282/260 brakes are capable.

The 262/240s probably aren't.

 

[Rich777]

Doh, yep... Lol. Call me an idiot !

 

[CR1S]

As said though its all up to what and how it's going to be used. If its drag racing he will only likely to be 1 pass every 30 mins or so. So then Shirley they will be capable, if its on a circuit then definatly not.
So it's up to you mate to make your own decision based on what we have told you

 

[Kozy]

Doh, yep... Lol. Call me an idiot !

Ek9 brakes are up to the job of most builds.

282mm discs have somewhere in the region of 25% more mass, and 25% more area than the 262s.

The 260mm rear brakes have 50% more mass and 35% more area than the 240s.

Combine all those increases and you get 33% more mass and 29% more cooling area in the brake system overall. Now, it's not simple maths, but the same energy input (i.e same weight slowing between the same two speeds) will take heat up the discs by about 33% less, and they'll cool down 29% quicker between braking events.

My sheet suggests that those effects combined mean you could put 300bhp into a 282/260mm system before it would exceed the temperature of a 262/240mm system with 160bhp over the 10x 100mph-0-100mph test cycle.

Yes, it's not an exact science (yet), but still puts things into a slightly better perspective. IMO at least.

 

[Rich777]

That's simply put. I understand. .. I'm a science geek as well lol.