Running Camber With Standard Shocks / Springs

[Steve]

Not sure if this has been asked before?

Going to be putting new ball joints, track rod ends and some bushes on the car over the next few weeks.
Has anyone or what are peoples thoughts on running adjustable camber on the front of the car with standard suspension?

I know the Clio-sport lot run different camber on the front of their cars even when standard suspension, my mate had his done and it certainly had a lot more front end grip.

I understand camber/caster but not in depth, so not sure what settings to run or stick with standard? Anyone care to explain the advantages/disadvantages of running more camber?

I want to keep the standard suspension (shocks/springs) as i find them a great compramise for day to day driving and find them good on track.

Any ideas info on whether i should go adjustable on the front or not, maybe with the rear to?
Going to be changing rta bushes to.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Kozy]

You will notice an increase in grip with more front camber, and infact it will actually be more beneficial on the stock suspension than on hard, lowered suspension because as you are probably aware, lowering increase negative camber anyway, but also the softer stock suspension means more roll, and more roll means more decambering on the outside wheels so you will benefit from more static negative to compensate for it.

Of course, there is is a point of diminishing returns with this, while you will generate more grip with more camber, more grip means more roll, which means more decambering and so on so forth... you could keep adding negative, but too much will affect how well your car puts power down and brakes, as you lift some of the tread of the road going in a straight line.

I'd say you were good to add up to around 1.5° to 2° with the stock suspension, I run 2.5° on my EK4 with the Spoon kit , which is just slightly stiffer OEM EK9 stuff, and it works a treat.

You'll generally want to increase the rears by a similar proportion to the front if you want to keep the balance of the car the same.

Remember also, toe kills tyres, not camber.

 

[Steve]

Cheers mate, so go for some decent front and rear adjustable camber arms? Bother with rear adjustable toe?
The front adjustable camber arms for EK's adjust caster to?

not to sure what the settings mean if i am deadly honest, care to explain? lol

 

[Kozy]

Camber is the common one, how much the top of the tyre leans into the car. More negative usually means more grip for complex reasons involving dynamic suspension geometry, tyre physics and a thing called camber thrust. There's a sweet spot for every combination of car, tyre and track but figuring it out is nigh on impossible for all but the top echelons of motorsport. Best left to testing on track and finding one that gets your tyre temps right.

Caster is the inclination between the upper and lower ball joints. As stock we run about 1° (lower BJ forward of the upper), an SPC camber kit will net you up to 2.5° by altering the position of the top BJ. It will increase steering weight, straightline stability and will provide a small amount of extra negative camber under steering lock. It's a nice extra, but not strictly necessary on our cars as it would be on a MacPherson strut type car, these need caster and generally run somewhere in the region of 7°.

Your rear toe is adjustable as stock.

 

[Steve]

Thanks for info.

What camber arms front and rear do you think I should go for?

Any recommendations on specific settings or should somewhere decent where I get the camber set be able to advise?

 

[Kozy]

Thanks for info.

What camber arms front and rear do you think I should go for?

SPC's if you can get them as they are the only ones that offer castor adjustment AFAIK.

If not, then next best IIRC are Hardrace, also worth checking out the Cyberspeeds from MeisterR, they seem to be getting good reviews.

I would personally beware stuff like Buddyclubs, D2s, Skunk2s etc. Seems to be a lot of reports of either premature balljoint, bushing or bolt failures. Steer clear of anything with a 'for race use only' sticker, usually means it's not designed with longevity in mind.

Any recommendations on specific settings or should somewhere decent where I get the camber set be able to advise?

I find that garages, while eager to offer advice on what you should and shouldnt run, often don't know much, if anything about the car in question. One place I went tried hard to convince me that the rear of my EK4 was a solid beam axle and was not adjustable for toe, another said I shouldn't run more than 1° of camber because I would destroy my tyres within a few miles! It's worth listening to them, but if what they advise conflicts with what the majority of members here appear to be doing then go with what we are doing. If they won't, or can't get the settings you want then take your business elsewhere.

As for specifics, hard to say really as it depends on your tyres, what sort of driving you do and so on. For mostly road driving on road tyres I would start with -1.5° to -2.0 camber front, and -1° to -1.5° rear. Castor, if you can adjust it then as much as you can, no risk of getting too much really. Toe is down to how you like it to feel. I personally have 0 all round at present but will be changing to a touch of toe out on the front when the car is running again. Some people here run toe out on the rear, but that could make the car a bit 'flighty' on the road.

If it is more track driving on R compound tyres, then you can go a bit more agressive.

It's all trial and error and really, you'll have to try things out and see how they feel. Check out StevenEK9s ghetto alignment rig, if you can set one of those up then you can tweak the things on your own without spending loads of money at the the garage everytime!

I would just like to add, bravo for sticking with the stock suspension!

 

[Steve]

Cheers for all the advice mate, spot on.

Yeah i prefer the stock shocks and springs, had BC Racing coilovers 8kg F and 5kg R and didn't rate them. Took them off after 4 days.

I do a lot of B-road "spirited" driving, slow 15mile drive to work and back each day then a track day or two a month
Will check his thread out, and have a bit trial and some error.


Think i should got for some rear LCA or just change the bushes in the standard LCA?
Use the standard lower ball joints from Honda?

You ever heard/used blackworks rear camber arms?

 

[Kozy]

Cheers for all the advice mate, spot on.

Yeah i prefer the stock shocks and springs, had BC Racing coilovers 8kg F and 5kg R and didn't rate them. Took them off after 4 days.

I do a lot of B-road "spirited" driving, slow 15mile drive to work and back each day then a track day or two a month

Good man. Such a shame to spoil a sweet handling car with crashy rock hard coilovers! If you fancy going a little bit stiffer but retaining OEM quality damping and handling balance, I highly recommend the Spoon fixed dampers and progressive springs. It's made in the same factory alongside the EK9 stuff but to Spoons specs, so is designed specifically for the car and it works very very well. It's expensive sure, but probably cheaper than new stock EK9 suspension!

I do a lot of B-road "spirited" driving, slow 15mile drive to work and back each day then a track day or two a month

Based on that sort of useage, those camber settings should be a good base point. If you feel like you need more grip one end of the car, increase the negative camber that end, and if you want it to feel a little more responsive, increase the toe out a fraction at that end. I'd keep the toe conservative though given your road miles unless you fancy swapping your tyres around regularly.

Think i should got for some rear LCA or just change the bushes in the standard LCA?
Use the standard lower ball joints from Honda?

I'm sure someone will tell me different, but ot me LCAs are just undercar bling. Some new decent rubber bushes will likely be better than some shiny new arms. New OEM balljoints are a good shout, sure the pattern parts will be cheaper but they're often weaker and will need replacing more often. Buy cheap, buy twice, and all that jazz...

You ever heard/used blackworks rear camber arms?

Nope, not heard of them. Rears are less cruicial than the fronts in terms of quality as there's simply less to go wrong with them. Make sure the bushes are good quality and give them a good protective coat of teflon grease to stop the threads seizing and most of them will be absolutely fine.

 

[Steve]

Where is best to get those front SPC camber arms from?

 

[Kozy]

They were recently discontinued but they crop up occasionally on forums.

 

[Steve]

Found SPC fronts for £200 delivered. Brand new. That the going rate? and you think its defo worth getting front adjustable camber arms? Will see a difference over standard?

 

[Kozy]

Yep that was about their price new, I paid £160ish for slightly used ones a few months ago.