big brakes


T

Tarran

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Dec 12, 2010
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hey guys
wanted to do a bigger brake set up..but does that mean i need to change the hub?
 
No. In fact the 4x100 hubs have more options. The Type-R and S2000 brake can both be had in 4 lug form with some modification and redrilled rotors.
 
And whats your budget? I set several different 4 pot setups as well as a few 6 pot kits too.
 
I really liked the content of this thread..Please keep sharing your knowledge with us.
 
There is also stuff like the Type-R front brake upgrade, I actually make that for around 300$ US, thought shipping may be a lot, and its 11.1" front rotors, using Type-R calipers which are far stiffer than wilwood's dynalite calipers, as well as a stronger pad, and allows for the use of OEM sized pads, so compound selection is limitless.
The S2000 upgrade is an 11.8" setup using a lighter caliper with a slightly smaller pad, that usually runs around 450$ US, no idea what that is in pounds.
 
BrakeExpert said:
There is also stuff like the Type-R front brake upgrade, I actually make that for around 300$ US, thought shipping may be a lot, and its 11.1" front rotors, using Type-R calipers which are far stiffer than wilwood's dynalite calipers, as well as a stronger pad, and allows for the use of OEM sized pads, so compound selection is limitless.
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Click to expand...
Type R calipers are-
Stiffer but ALOT heavier
Have Only 1 piston on a slider lol
Pad strenght?? pads are pads all depends on the manufacture.

So do you manufcture you own calipers and fitting kits.

Sorry All seems a bit missleading to me so are you saying the 282mm dics and ITR caliper setup would out perform a 4pot willwood setup on the same discs?

Integra type R caliper are direct bolt on to EK4 (vti) hubs all you need to get is the mg zr180 282mm discs, itr pads and your away, shouldnt cost more than £150-200 if you shop around. BUT i add this setup isnt the most ideal for track use or quite spirited fast road use. I have had the 282mm ITR setup on the front of my EG6 for 2 years now and even with uprated mintex fast road/track 1144 pads numerous disc brands i have managed to cook them and its never been on a track as yet.

All depend on your budget really and what you intend to use it for. If you just want a bit extra on a budget. Go for the ITR callipers and 282mm discs, maybe with some fast road pads. If its going to be tracked i would advise the willwood minilite setup.

Personly i dont think brakes are worth skimping on. As they are one of the most important mods to having a fast well handled car. Regardless tracked or not.
 
11.1" is the same 282mm disk used in the Midilite kit.
What makes you think the Type R calipers are far stiffer than the Wilwood Dynalites too?
The kits I do use the Midi and Superlite calipers. Both are produced from a drop-forged billet. This forging process produces a body design that provides higher strength and reduced load deflection superior to any cast or machined block billet caliper, combined with substantial x-bolting and extended flank design it is one of the stiffest, radial mount calipers currently available.
The Wilwood calipers are 4 piston as well which have a larger total piston area than the single piston calipers.
Pad compounds are completely down to the customer preference. And 90% of manufacturers supply pads in the Wilwood patterns.
 
The MG ZS rotors are near impossible to get, at least in the US, for a decent price. Shipping and all else considered, its far cheaper for us to modify the brackets and use redrilled rotors. So the kit entails using Redrilled Prelude VTEC discs, and milling the 23T brackets, on a big ass precision milling machine. And yes I am saying they will outperform wilwood, yes. Though the wilwood may have special forging processes, its not forged Honda iron. Now we can argue all day about how much stiffer, but compare the ITR caliper to one of the three piece wilwood lightweight calipers, and caliper flex becomes an actual issue.

Piston area as well as number of pistons doesn't actually affect the 60-0. The ITR caliper was one that though it was a single piston, did not have problems with uneven pad wear, while old calipers like the late 80s RX7 4 piston caliper did have severe uneven pad wear problems, mostly cause it was a poorer pad shape and the 4 pistons were the same diameter. Modern 4 piston calipers have the leading pistons smaller to help control this.

But the ITR pad itself is an exceptional design. Its shared with the NSX, and uses an identical contact patch to the McLaren F1 roadcar (I'm not making it up, check Pagid.) I'm not saying the Wilwood setup is bad, its lighter, but for an 11.1" setup, the ITR pad is bigger with a stiffer caliper, so using a similar pad compound, the ITR setup is going to offer more bite and a better 60-0 assuming identical bias, tires, etc. However if the wilwood caliper uses a large caliper with also a big ass pad, because its aluminum it may help radiate heat better, so there may be a comparison on a track with its less weight and possibly keeping em a bit cooler with restrictive wheels and no dust shield and/or air ducting.

But to compare that little wilwood caliper to the Type-R brakes both on an 11.1", the wilwoods are gonna be lighter but the type-Rs are the better track choice if you ask me.

Sorry if this came across as harsh, I'm not tryin to hate on wilwood, we ran em on our school's F1 car, tho those were 7" solid rotors on race pads, but again it would outbrake any roadcar.

If anyone wants to debate the factors of redrilled rotors, I wrote a great article on why they are completely safe. And the milling of the brackets reduces the rigidity by a negligible amount.
 
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Ok, but real world performace from people who have upgraded from DC2 single piston calipers to the Wilwood calpers have been impressed with the increase in performance.

If you compare the 2 calipers, the numbers go in favour of the Wilwood 4 pots being able to offer a better braking force:

DC2 Caliper:
Piston Diameter: 57mm
Piston Radius: 28.5mm
Effectve Piston Area(Pi x R squared): 2551.76 mm^2
Force per 10Bar(EPA in mm x 10 x 0.1/9.81): 260.12 kgf
Effective Piston Area(EPA x 0.00155): 3.96 inches
Force per 145psi(EPA in inches x 145): 573.51 lbsf

Wilwood 4 pot calipers:
Piston Diameter: 44.5mm
Piston Radius: 22.25mm
Effectve Piston Area(pi x R squared x2): 3110.57 mm^2
Force per 10Bar(EPA in mm x 10 x 0.1/9.81): 317.08 kgf
Effective Piston Area(EPA x 0.00155): 4.82 inches
Force per 145psi(EPA in inches x 145): 699.10 lbsf

1 60-0 stop may be identical, but 10 60-0 stops back to back will soon highlight the performance differences with the calipers. The same as taking the car out on the track - where the EK9 and DC2 show their colours.

There's been no reported issues with any Wilwood 4 pot caliper showing uneven pad wear either. Comparing them to a 30 year old 4 pot isn't really a good comparison :)

Also, the Wilwood calipers are 2 piece, unless you're including the fabricated bracket. In which case the sliding caliper on the DC2 would be 2 piece including the caliper..

Another factor to add to the equation is of course the weight. The standard cast iron OEM calipers can easily be 2x the weight of the lighter drop forged aluminium calipers. Combine that with a 2 piece disk setup with aluminium bells and you're easliy saving around 7-10kg of weight.
 
BrakeExpert said:
The MG ZS rotors are near impossible to get, at least in the US, for a decent price. Shipping and all else considered, its far cheaper for us to modify the brackets and use redrilled rotors. So the kit entails using Redrilled Prelude VTEC discs, and milling the 23T brackets, on a big ass precision milling machine. And yes I am saying they will outperform wilwood, yes. Though the wilwood may have special forging processes, its not forged Honda iron. Now we can argue all day about how much stiffer, but compare the ITR caliper to one of the three piece wilwood lightweight calipers, and caliper flex becomes an actual issue.

Piston area as well as number of pistons doesn't actually affect the 60-0. The ITR caliper was one that though it was a single piston, did not have problems with uneven pad wear, while old calipers like the late 80s RX7 4 piston caliper did have severe uneven pad wear problems, mostly cause it was a poorer pad shape and the 4 pistons were the same diameter. Modern 4 piston calipers have the leading pistons smaller to help control this.

But the ITR pad itself is an exceptional design. Its shared with the NSX, and uses an identical contact patch to the McLaren F1 roadcar (I'm not making it up, check Pagid.) I'm not saying the Wilwood setup is bad, its lighter, but for an 11.1" setup, the ITR pad is bigger with a stiffer caliper, so using a similar pad compound, the ITR setup is going to offer more bite and a better 60-0 assuming identical bias, tires, etc. However if the wilwood caliper uses a large caliper with also a big ass pad, because its aluminum it may help radiate heat better, so there may be a comparison on a track with its less weight and possibly keeping em a bit cooler with restrictive wheels and no dust shield and/or air ducting.

But to compare that little wilwood caliper to the Type-R brakes both on an 11.1", the wilwoods are gonna be lighter but the type-Rs are the better track choice if you ask me.

Sorry if this came across as harsh, I'm not tryin to hate on wilwood, we ran em on our school's F1 car, tho those were 7" solid rotors on race pads, but again it would outbrake any roadcar.

If anyone wants to debate the factors of redrilled rotors, I wrote a great article on why they are completely safe. And the milling of the brackets reduces the rigidity by a negligible amount.
Click to expand...

MG discs are all over ebay most of the time and are readily avaliable at alomost all motor parts store.
MG ZS ZR160 FRONT EBC DIMPLED GROOVED BRAKE DISCS X 2 on eBay (end time 31-Dec-10 16:02:56 GMT)

Milling??? surley for a little few mm of caliper metal a hand grinder would do i have seen it done plenty. Or spacer behind the disc of 1mm or 2.

I still dont get how you can say a Single piston caliper on slider pins can be better and out perform on track than a lighter 4 pot caliper.

Honda iron which is lots heavier and not exactly the best at disipating heat.

1 or 2 60-0 's is not really saying is a better caliper. The main reason people upgrade there brakes is because they keep over heating what they have. I think the question is which is better 110 to 40 ten times continualy round a track. ???

Prime example of personal expearience.
-I run ITR calipers with mintex 1144 fast road track pads and 282mm discs on my 1100kg (with me in) B18CR EG6.
-My mate runs Willwood 4 pot calipers with same mintex fast road pads on his standard 256mm discs on his 2.0l 180hp ish throttle bodied Clio williams also 1100kg.

Both cars on 15" wheels runing the same goodyear tyres

Runnning over the same mountain road (spirited drive, not racing ;)) of 14miles up and downhill long straights and corrners (isle of man TT mountain course)
Always as we get about 3/4 of the way over and my brakes are starting to overheat and fade. His on the other hand are still sharp as ever. i have encountered this many times over. Speeds up and down between 130-70mph (unrestricted one way closed road in TT week)

So i am finding it very hard to believe you when you say the standard ITR setup "will" out perform the willwood 4 pots.

I dont mean to sound insulting but you sound alot more like a salesman exagerating the pro's and con's in your favour than an expert. But thats jus my blatant oppinion
 
My brother runs standard calipers on his EK9 rally-car and with a good pad and disc combination he's never had a problem with over heating and there is loads of pedal stamping on some stages. The calipers, much like everything else on the EK9, are well suited to track use.
 
KieranEG6 said:
Prime example of personal expearience.
-I run ITR calipers with mintex 1144 fast road track pads and 282mm discs on my 1100kg (with me in) B18CR EG6.
-My mate runs Willwood 4 pot calipers with same mintex fast road pads on his standard 256mm discs on his 2.0l 180hp ish throttle bodied Clio williams also 1100kg.

Both cars on 15" wheels runing the same goodyear tyres

Runnning over the same mountain road (spirited drive, not racing ;)) of 14miles up and downhill long straights and corrners (isle of man TT mountain course)
Always as we get about 3/4 of the way over and my brakes are starting to overheat and fade. His on the other hand are still sharp as ever.
Click to expand...

Do you have standard 240mm rears? If you do, you are most likely over working the fronts leading to them fading quicker than you would expect.
 
No I'm not arguing the weight, the Wilwood are definatly lighter by a good bit. However again, piston area doesn't amount to much, its just the applied force, that can be changed, bias can be changed. The regular DC2 front caliper also has a 57mm piston, its massive, but if you ask me that caliper is far too small and it lacks rigidity. The ITR caliper may be a sliding caliper, but check out the slide pins and its tabs. Its rigidity is nothing to ignore. I'm sure the Wilwood calipers don't have uneven pad wear. Does this setup have dust boots? I know this is the publically viewed weakness of all Wilwood brakes. Their calipers that lack dust boots make caliper rebuilding routine maintainence, and I know I've heard people like my uncle bark about how OEM rubber boots may not survive at temperatures like 1500 degrees, but for damn near every track raced Honda, the boots are perfectly durable, as every other problem will occur first (fade, heat-soaked bearings and ball joints, brake fluid boiling, and the lot.)


Now those rotors. Those are garbage, and there also expensive as hell for what they are.
Yes the brackets HAVE to be milled. Its the surface where the bracket bolts to the knuckle. Meaning if you whack at it with a bench grinder, it'll be uneven. Now the pad is contacting at an angle relative to the rotor.
Using washers is totally not safe. For one, now the rotor isn't centered anymore (as the MG SZ and Prelude VTEC rotors are hub-centric), and you reduce the contact to the hub/rotor by a factor that is not exactly negligable.

Yeah I'm saying a single piston sliding caliper can outperform a 4 piston fixed caliper. The fact that its got pistons on both sides does not "automatically" make it better like so many people have been told to think. You're bigger factors are a. rotor diameter and 2. pad footprint. There are several other factors, but as for my experience workings with LOTS and lots of brakes, the ITR caliper, believe it or not, is one of the best made calipers EVER to clear a 15" wheel. And I don't just mean verse the aftermarket, I mean verse all other makes of cars too. They put quite a lot of engineering behind the scenes for just a stock brake.
Hondas iron is textured as you can see, and yeah it does a pretty good job of dissapating heat.

Consider the AEM big brake upgrade verse the Honda Type-R disc. The AEM rotor is a very good design, its made by DBA, but its heat vane design (I'm negating the drilled/slotted factor for a moment) looks from the side as if it was cast as one whole piece, like a 23mm thick rotor with large holes drilled from the side, where the OEM disc looks like two thin records with oval stilts separating them. This OEM design does have less weight and more surface area as a whole to dissapate heat. This is one factor I know, but again with that old RX7, its rotors were like this, also an 11" disc, and I'm damn sure the ITR caliper on that car (and maybe its rotors too) would allow it to brake better!

I understand your bias verse your friend, and I counter that with more questions. What rear brakes does he have? What fluid do you run? Do you have the OEM dust shields? Does he have brake ducting? And the bigger factor, does he run a 2 piece rotor? Because an aluminum hat on a 2 piece disc as well as an aluminum caliper, also added to by possibly less front brake bias, a possible lack of mudguards, maybe more open spoked wheels, and not knowing if the pads are tapered or were bedded in correctly, yeah, his may outperform yours. ALSO, and not to hate, but I don't know much about the MG ZS disc other than that is NOT a Honda designed rotor. That car tho it had 11.1" front brakes, did NOT use the Type-R caliper. So I cannot vouch for that rotor being heavier or lighter than the comparable Prelude VTEC disc I use.

Regarding the guy with ITR front brakes, are you running DOT3 or DOT4 brake fluid, what MC/BB do you have and what rear brakes are on it?


Once again, sorry if I come off as a smart ass, but this I feel is a real discussion past "fixed calipers are always better cause they got more pistons."
 
BrakeExpert said:
However again, piston area doesn't amount to much, its just the applied force.
Click to expand...

How does the applied force not amount to much? I'd say it was pretty crucial in the performance of the brakes.

BrakeExpert said:
You're bigger factors are a. rotor diameter and 2. pad footprint.
Click to expand...

Why do the Stoptech white papers say that pad size is irrelevant when calculating a brake setup then?
 
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