B16b lost to a gsr?


2.0>1.8>1.6 :D

Itsnot about torque...you need also power as hell. If torque so much metter, why fabia RS 1.9 TDI with 310nm have worst 0-100 kmh time than 1.5 civic coupe with mighty ~140 nm?

The reason why you probably loosing is power curve i guess it is now a bit diffrent than stock (due to mods) so horsepower is not that effective. Bigger displecement have always advantage in higher speeds...

edit: any mods on GSR? Slightly modded (and lightened) GSR was as fast as stock ITR...
 
exactly...

diesel engines is a gd example.

HP and Torque has to match. The power/torque curve on a dyno graph tells a lot.

B20_R said:
2.0>1.8>1.6 :D

Itsnot about torque...you need also power as hell.
Click to expand...
 
I know exactly what you are saying and I totally agree that the car with more torque and BHP to match will usually win.

The reason that I think that my ek9 in this case was the same speed as my old dc2 is that the dc2 had no weight reduction at all and my car has maybe roughly 50kg taken out and is also a lighter car to start off with, this obviously helps make up the difference in torque between the 2 cars. I also know that with a stock ek9 vs stock dc2 the dc2 will clearly win

Again if you put a b18c into my ek9 with more torque it would be quicker again and pull past the dc2:naughty:


A friend of mine has a Seat leon FR with a hybrid turbo, huge downpipe/decat, milltec cat back and a Remap developed on a rally car. The Leon produces about 250BHP and 390-400 ft lbs of torque! When I raced the Leon in my old dc2, off the mark he couldn't get grip so the teg always won but then rolling start it was a very close race and the DC2 only pulled away very slightly at the end of each gear because of the rev range.

This just shows how sometimes weight affects how a car performs ie, heavy more powerfull car vs less powerfull lighter car and the lighter car won in this case.

Another example was a 240BHP/160ftlbs EP3 civic vs a 205BHP/130ftlbs dc2 and they are an even match so the main factor that allows the dc2 to keep up with the more powerfull k20 must be weight
 
SPek9 said:
I know exactly what you are saying and I totally agree that the car with more torque and BHP to match will usually win.

The reason that I think that my ek9 in this case was the same speed as my old dc2 is that the dc2 had no weight reduction at all and my car has maybe roughly 50kg taken out and is also a lighter car to start off with, this obviously helps make up the difference in torque between the 2 cars. I also know that with a stock ek9 vs stock dc2 the dc2 will clearly win

Again if you put a b18c into my ek9 with more torque it would be quicker again and pull past the dc2:naughty:


A friend of mine has a Seat leon FR with a hybrid turbo, huge downpipe/decat, milltec cat back and a Remap developed on a rally car. The Leon produces about 250BHP and 390-400 ft lbs of torque! When I raced the Leon in my old dc2, off the mark he couldn't get grip so the teg always won but then rolling start it was a very close race and the DC2 only pulled away very slightly at the end of each gear because of the rev range.

This just shows how sometimes weight affects how a car performs ie, heavy more powerfull car vs less powerfull lighter car and the lighter car won in this case.

Another example was a 240BHP/160ftlbs EP3 civic vs a 205BHP/130ftlbs dc2 and they are an even match so the main factor that allows the dc2 to keep up with the more powerfull k20 must be weight
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Nothing to argue with there mate...

The Ek9 IS lighter than the DC2 and more rigid. Its no suprise. Even so, a modded DC2R isnt always faster than a stock DC2R. Depends on the combination. That story about the 6 DC2Rs drag test is testimony. And my modded EK9 vs my stock DC2R is also another testimony.
 
Yea you are right, and some modifications do in fact make a car slower than OEM.

My old dc2 ran a 14.1 on the quarter mile so its safe to say that its slightly faster than stock anyway. The dc2 isnt far off stock either as all it has is 4-2-1 mani, de-cat and stock airbox.


Just out of interest, what intake are you running? When I changed from a dc2 airbox to an open filter with 3" intake piping my car was ALOT slower than before, I tested it against another car and after putting the OEM airbox back on there was roughly 10 car lenghts difference to 100mph!!(hard to judge distance but it was alot)

I was very shocked by the difference it made and I will never run without an airbox again. Might be an explaination as to why the stock dc2 was fastest in the example you gave.


Another thing that I found strange was the spoon ecu, when I ran the spoon ecu the 98spec DC2 pulled away from me easily in every gear! After putting the OEM ek9 ecu back in it was dead even every time until 4th when I actually started to edge away, my 4th gear is slightly shorter due to a 4.78fd in an ek9 box. Basically the genuine spoon ECU made my car a good bit slower!!
 
SPek9 said:
Another thing that I found strange was the spoon ecu, when I ran the spoon ecu the 98spec DC2 pulled away from me easily in every gear! After putting the OEM ek9 ecu back in it was dead even every time until 4th when I actually started to edge away, my 4th gear is slightly shorter due to a 4.78fd in an ek9 box. Basically the genuine spoon ECU made my car a good bit slower!!
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Well, its not the safe way to run 1.8 ecu on 1.6 engine (and reversely...) this can do piston demage, not only power loss :)
 
B20_R said:
Well, its not the safe way to run 1.8 ecu on 1.6 engine (and reversely...) this can do piston demage, not only power loss :)
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You might be getting confused mate, it was a 98spec dc2 that I raced but the spoon ecu I used in my ek9 was actually made for a 1.6 b16b ek9 not a 1.8
 
it depend on the driver sometime dc2 are faster than ek9 no dought about that i raced my mate b16a sir in a 1/4 mile and i lost to him being a bad driver so at the next run gave my car to other mate of mine to race him and won the race they are some strong b16b and there some weak ones i own a dc2 before dyno at 215bhp with bolt on mods and 145 ft of torque my ek9 makes 187 with the same mods and torque is very low that speaks for itself i went for an ek9 because i like the look of them ek9 b18 good conbination.
 
i wasnt able to read all the posts i was too eager to add my $.02 lol .. but jugbugz is absolutely correct .. its not able how many upgrades you have but more importantly the combination of performance parts your using ...and for the most part all of our engines are built with the same specs as the next b16 or b18 from factory .. but some come out with different results .. from factory you may have a few more horses than the person next to you sitting in and IDENTICAL car but always lose.. .. ALSO .. very very important is the driver...(not saying you cant drive or hes better)but some people know their cars and some people REALLY know their cars lol

nonetheless the gsr is a very respectable car my brother owned one .. if im not mistaken they come with 180hp.. from factory same as ek9?????????<< not too sure DONT quote me lol .. and then again its a 1.8 vs 1.6.... theres so many different things as to what the possibilities of him beating you are
 
oo and also what "I have experienced "is if you guys both DUMPED the clutch on take offs usually the one with better tires/less power.. grips first .. thus causing it to pull away first .. but if you guys were feathering the clutch then it jus depends on who had a better take off .. i always say the most important part of a race is your take off and it "IS" the most important part .. after that you jus have to know your car and be ready to get in those gears lol :drive:
 
B18C (GSR)
Year:94-01
Valve Train: DOHC, VTEC, 16 Valve
Displacement:1797cc
Horsepower:178 @ 7600rpm
Torque:128 lb-ft @ 6200rpm*
Compression:10.0:1
Red line:8200rpm

And here's the b16b
Year:98+
Valve Train: DOHC, VTEC, 16 Valve
Displacement:1600cc
Horsepower:185 @ 8200rpm
Torque:118 lb-ft @ 7500rpm
Compression:10.8:1
Redline:9000rpm
*
Only 10lb-ft/.2L less... Is that alot?
Btw he ran if on a dyno and got 137whp.
 
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When I was more involved in the forum in the past, I had a thread on my comparison between aftermarket ecu vs stock ecu.

I had a js racing ecu and spoon ecu.
The aftermarket ecus kick vtec in earlier and had huge power dips from 5000-6000rpm, it only picked up again from 6000rpm. The stock ecu had no dips.

Basically the generic ecus are bad for your car. They're just marketing ploys to get your cash. They will never ever compare against a custom ecu + tuning.

My vtec now kicks at 5500rpm and retains that surging kick. Simply because it's tuned to my engine. The difference is just night and day.

I tell you guys this. I've a friend who has a stripped EG6 with b16a, mild potted head, type r cams, Type r IM, js racing intake, Power FC. And ran the 1/4 mile at 13.9secs with a worned out clutch and shitty Tyres.

The motor is as strong as many b18s at the top end. Simply because of tuning.




SPek9 said:
Yea you are right, and some modifications do in fact make a car slower than OEM.

My old dc2 ran a 14.1 on the quarter mile so its safe to say that its slightly faster than stock anyway. The dc2 isnt far off stock either as all it has is 4-2-1 mani, de-cat and stock airbox.


Just out of interest, what intake are you running? When I changed from a dc2 airbox to an open filter with 3" intake piping my car was ALOT slower than before, I tested it against another car and after putting the OEM airbox back on there was roughly 10 car lenghts difference to 100mph!!(hard to judge distance but it was alot)

I was very shocked by the difference it made and I will never run without an airbox again. Might be an explaination as to why the stock dc2 was fastest in the example you gave.


Another thing that I found strange was the spoon ecu, when I ran the spoon ecu the 98spec DC2 pulled away from me easily in every gear! After putting the OEM ek9 ecu back in it was dead even every time until 4th when I actually started to edge away, my 4th gear is slightly shorter due to a 4.78fd in an ek9 box. Basically the genuine spoon ECU made my car a good bit slower!!
Click to expand...
 
Thats impressive for a b16A! You are right bud, I would never touch a generic ECU again and I would like to get my car tuned properly with either Hondata or Apexi power fc if I can find either of them 2nd hand at a good price.


When you say that there was a power dip around 5-6k rpm with the spoon ecu, on my car it had less power even from 6k to 8k as a few of the runs we had I was already on vtec!
 
jugbugz :good:

like said, hondas need tuning, just sticking bolt ons on your engine wont nesecarilly make you faster.
 
jugbugz said:
When I was more involved in the forum in the past, I had a thread on my comparison between aftermarket ecu vs stock ecu.

I had a js racing ecu and spoon ecu.
The aftermarket ecus kick vtec in earlier and had huge power dips from 5000-6000rpm, it only picked up again from 6000rpm. The stock ecu had no dips.

Basically the generic ecus are bad for your car. They're just marketing ploys to get your cash. They will never ever compare against a custom ecu + tuning.

My vtec now kicks at 5500rpm and retains that surging kick. Simply because it's tuned to my engine. The difference is just night and day.

I tell you guys this. I've a friend who has a stripped EG6 with b16a, mild potted head, type r cams, Type r IM, js racing intake, Power FC. And ran the 1/4 mile at 13.9secs with a worned out clutch and shitty Tyres.

The motor is as strong as many b18s at the top end. Simply because of tuning.
Click to expand...

... so ur saying spoon ecus and others like that are NOT good ...and hondata program is? With what ecu? stock ecu ?
 
Do some research ffs.

He is saying any generic ECU is not as good as a custom map on a standalone ecu or chipped/socketed ecu.
 
689R said:
Do some research ffs.

He is saying any generic ECU is not as good as a custom map on a standalone ecu or chipped/socketed ecu.
Click to expand...

2x...
2 same cars in stock form, with the only difference between the 2 cars being one with OEM ECU and the other with a Programable ECU. If tuned properly the Programable ECU car should net higher power over the OEM ECU car.

Got beat by an ECU.
 
In reality, and most people aint going to like what I say but... generic ecus are the worst piece of **** i've ever invested on my cars.

This includes all the famous brands such as Mugen, Spoon, Js, etc etc. My stock ECU had better all round performance. Those generic ecus showed some weird ass power curve... like retarded. Locals in AU have tuned K-Pros vs Mugen K20a generic ECU($1100) and whooped its ass!

Ever since my PFC tune, I gained 30whp mid range and 24whp top end. This really made all my expensive mods like Toda headers, custom variable diameter cat back, intake etc really shine out!

Before the tune, I was at the edge of ditching my B16B, I was thinking "wtf is wrong with it? I got all the best **** on it!" and bought a monster fully built inside-out K20a which was tuned by Hondata owner in USA. This engine now sits inside my garage with all the SMSP headers, exhuast etc etc. 260whp on 2.0L N/A doesnt sound to shabby eh?

But ever since the tune, I'm quite happy with the B16B and will continue to tune it with mild cams and gearing on the list. Having owned a stock DC2R and modded DC5R all at once, you guys wouldnt understand how bad the B16B felt in comparison.
 
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SPek9 said:
Thats impressive for a b16A! You are right bud, I would never touch a generic ECU again and I would like to get my car tuned properly with either Hondata or Apexi power fc if I can find either of them 2nd hand at a good price.


When you say that there was a power dip around 5-6k rpm with the spoon ecu, on my car it had less power even from 6k to 8k as a few of the runs we had I was already on vtec!
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When you have a power dip throughout 1000rpms, you already lost the drag. And it doesnt pick up until another 500rpm later. So you fuct yourself with about 1500-2000rpm disadvantage. Game over lol

And the extra rpm limiter released to 9300rpm doesnt do **** with that power dip. Also the worst thing is, you dont even know if your engine is knocking or not? My Power FC commander shows me that real time(bonus). Basically, your engine could be wearing out.

As said, my b16B now makes peak power at 9000rpm and spins to 9300-9500 limiter. Stock cams and internals! I'm happy with the parts I've got on my car(fair bit to list).

Think about it like this. The stock car is well balanced tuned. Then you come along, change this and that, then you give it a generic brain thinking it will all work out, and because you spent your hard earned cash, you'd think your car is going faster, but instead you get pawned. Thats not cool... :lol:
 
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