Civic Cup car - B16A2 or B16B

[Dave_Buky88]

I race in the Civic Cup and the regs state that we must run no more than 190bhp (+4% which is 197.6 bhp)

I currently have a standard B16A2 engine with header, exhaust, skunk 2 inlet, whales ***** induction and S300 ECU with civic cup map that has been tweaked to suit my bolt ons. At the start of the season the car ran 191.4 BHP but at the end it was only reading 184 BHP both on TDI North dyno. I decided to check the compression the other day and when cold with throttle fully open reads:

Cylinder 1 - 179 psi
Cylinder 2 - 179 psi
Cylinder 3 - 172 psi
Cylinder 4 - 165 psi

I believe these figures are around what you would expect to see on a standard used B16A2 engine and seem to be consistent across all 4 cylinders proving the engine is in good condition. The car has never let me down, doesnt smoke and seems relatively strong.

I know the B16B runs a higher compression and i am wondering what will be best to do, either rebuild the B16A2 or buy a B16B. Can anyone shed any light on this. Just so people are aware we have to use OEM parts and i am aware that people put the B16B pistons and cams in the A2 engine which is also allowed.

Also does anyone know of someone who is good at building these motors, as i suspect i will need to do that either way for a reliable motor for 2016.

 

[R1PPU]

Are you sure the power difference isn't just because of different ambient conditions...?

 

[SPek9]

I have owned an Ek4 b16a track car and a b16b ek9 which I also used on the track and even though there is not too much difference between the 2 engines power wise.. The b16b is basically a factory tuned version of the b16a and is also a better balanced engine so it likes to rev higher which is always good on the track

If it was me and you can find a genuine B16b for good money then I would 100% choose that over a rebuilt b16a, its hassle free and you should have no problems and it will produce the power that you need with bolt ons and a map.. Also its personal choice but my car went better with an airbox type intake compared what you currently run and the mugen style intakes are worth every penny

 

[Dave_Buky88]

Thanks for your comments.

SPek9 - was your the B16A out of the SIR if so these are 170bhp standard and run different pistons and I believe have 10.4.1 compression as opposed to my a2 which is 10.2.1 and the b16b at 10.8.1. I will also look into the air box situation.

R1PPU - im not too sure I know dynos can change but my mates car ran basically the same power as it did at the start of the season, plus I don't think a standard a2 would pull 190 bhp?

 

[SPek9]

Thanks for your comments.

SPek9 - was your the B16A out of the SIR if so these are 170bhp standard and run different pistons and I believe have 10.4.1 compression as opposed to my a2 which is 10.2.1 and the b16b at 10.8.1. I will also look into the air box situation.

R1PPU - im not too sure I know dynos can change but my mates car ran basically the same power as it did at the start of the season, plus I don't think a standard a2 would pull 190 bhp?

My B16a had a head skim to raise the compression and then I ran the SIR Ecu and it went very well for what it was, it was internally standard and sat well with B18c civics

The B16b was still a better motor, Honda know what they were doing when they made the Type-R engines.

You could fit B16B internals into your B16a and make the same power but that would probably cost you more and you rely on the engine builder, somthing that you dont need to worry about with an un-opened engine

A lot of rally boys in the 1600cc class here use standard B16b's with bolt-ons and gearing for reliability

 

[Dave_Buky88]

My B16a had a head skim to raise the compression and then I ran the SIR Ecu and it went very well for what it was, it was internally standard and sat well with B18c civics

The B16b was still a better motor, Honda know what they were doing when they made the Type-R engines.

You could fit B16B internals into your B16a and make the same power but that would probably cost you more and you rely on the engine builder, somthing that you dont need to worry about with an un-opened engine

A lot of rally boys in the 1600cc class here use standard B16b's with bolt-ons and gearing for reliability

I think I would even re build the B16b for peace of mind and for reliability. So I guess its working out which would be best I presume its not just a case of dropping some type r Cams and Pistons in and there is more to it. Also would this mean the B16A2 would be less reliable, I have heard the crank is stronger in the B16b engine. Sorry my knowledge on this is quite limited and is why I put a post for those who know much more.

Thanks again, Dave.

 

[SPek9]

My B16a had a head skim to raise the compression and then I ran the SIR Ecu and it went very well for what it was, it was internally standard and sat well with B18c civics

The B16b was still a better motor, Honda know what they were doing when they made the Type-R engines.

You could fit B16B internals into your B16a and make the same power but that would probably cost you more and you rely on the engine builder, somthing that you dont need to worry about with an un-opened engine

I think I would even re build the B16b for peace of mind and for reliability. So I guess its working out which would be best I presume its not just a case of dropping some type r Cams and Pistons in and there is more to it. Also would this mean the B16A2 would be less reliable, I have heard the crank is stronger in the B16b engine. Sorry my knowledge on this is quite limited and is why I put a post for those who know much more.

Thanks again, Dave.

I'm no expert so I'm just commenting with my personal experience and what people I know have experienced

Again rebuilding your engine comes down to who ever is doing the work. There are people out there who will build an engine that will burn oil and potentially be unreliable and then there are people who know exactly what they are doing and build an engine as reliable as Honda. Getting an engine done properly is not cheap but you could keep it simple and change the stem seals and head gasket while inspecting the oil pump and bearings at the same time

TDI North have a blog where they stripped a k20 that had covered 200,000 miles iirc and used mainly on the track and it had very little wear internally. They said that the main cause of the oil usage was simply the valve guides and stem seals

 

[Dave_Buky88]

ye like I said mine seems to run well, doesn't burn oil and seems a decent engine. Im just wondering if by rebuilding mine or upgrading it with the type r pistons and cams or buying a b16b that is ready tuned from Honda will actually give me a better engine to race with. I suppose a saying is if its not broke then don't dont fix it. Just think that if people are running B16bs and im running a standard A2 surely that is a disadvantage straight away, then again mine was fast on track so would another engine mean it would be quicker.....who knows lol

 

[SPek9]

Your only talking about 15bhp difference realistically between the 2 engines and a small gain in torque but it should Rev a bit nicer

So if you have the spare cash I would say why not fit the best standard B16 that you can and if not just stick with what you have

 

[jesse888]

i can rebuild a b series if your willing to take a punt on an unknown builder.
Looking for an opportunity to break into this sort of business tbh.
Had abit of a learning curve with my own engines this year and feel I've got the experience/knowledge of the B that's required, just need the break...

 

[b16 mini]

If you want to gain performance similar to a b16b from a b16a then it really is quite simple and can be done with out touching the bottom end.
You can up the Compression ratio with a head skim, install type r cams and springs along with some vernier pullies to time it up correctly.

The rise in compression should give you a bit of extra torque across the Rev range once it's set up with a good map.

You can skim 20thou from the head,(providing it's not been skimmed in the past)

 

[Dave_Buky88]

If you want to gain performance similar to a b16b from a b16a then it really is quite simple and can be done with out touching the bottom end.
You can up the Compression ratio with a head skim, install type r cams and springs along with some vernier pullies to time it up correctly.

The rise in compression should give you a bit of extra torque across the Rev range once it's set up with a good map.

You can skim 20thou from the head,(providing it's not been skimmed in the past)

Thanks for the reply, not allowed to use vernier Pullies everything has to be OEM on the engine. Few bolt ons are allowed such as skunk2 inlet which I already have. Do you know if the a2 crank is as strong, in order to fit b16b Pistons the con rods need to be ground down don't they? Would the above modifications make the engine comparable to the b16b?

 

[Dave_Buky88]

i can rebuild a b series if your willing to take a punt on an unknown builder.
Looking for an opportunity to break into this sort of business tbh.
Had abit of a learning curve with my own engines this year and feel I've got the experience/knowledge of the B that's required, just need the break...

Thanks mate I will message you on here. Where are you located?

 

[b16 mini]

Thanks for the reply, not allowed to use vernier Pullies everything has to be OEM on the engine. Few bolt ons are allowed such as skunk2 inlet which I already have. Do you know if the a2 crank is as strong, in order to fit b16b Pistons the con rods need to be ground down don't they? Would the above modifications make the engine comparable to the b16b?

The b16a crank will be fine providing you keep a sensible rev limit

Personally I wouldn't bother fitting b16b Pistons to a 16a, a head skim and cams will make it comparable to the 16b
Keep a stock bottom end for reliability and ease of replacement if it fails.

If your not allowed to use vernier pullies then you could get the woodruff key slot on the oem pullies altered by a machine shop.

You would need to use some vernier pullies to time it up, then remove the vernier pullies and use them as a template for the slot in the oem pullies to be machined to.