***Supercharged B18CR info needed***

[EK9dan]

Hi!

Nothing is for definiet and/or when i would do this but ive been contemplating the idea in supercharging my B18CR motor.

Its a 98 Spec engine.

Ive thought of turbo but ive had turbo motors before and i already own one now so i want to go for something different. Supercharged B18.

Basically if i was going to spend the money i would want in the region of 280-300BHP realiably. I dont want any more as i want it still as usuable as possible and i think that sort of power would be nice in the car.

Now i ask,

*Has anyone got any experience in supercharged B18CR?

*what superchargers are available for this engine?

*What power can i run from this on stock engine/internals?

*What compression ratio would be needed to run sufficiant boost from the charger to reach that power? say around 10PSI i would of thought? Would stock compression not be suitable?

*Can i just run a thicker head gasket to lower comp without messing around with low comp pistions?

*Ive heard there are bolt on kits that acheive around 250BHP, If so what are these kits, prices etc? Even though i want more then 250BHP as mentioned. Are there any bolt on kits that would gain the power i request?

*Baically whats involved in doing this and what sort of price are we talking?

I just want as much information as possible preferbly covering the points ive mentioned.

After i know what i need to then i get get serious about the idea and give it a good think.

Any help would be most appricated and will give rep for useful information that will help me along the way.

Thanks in advance.

 

[EK9dan]

anybody?

 

[leeK9]

Jon44w.Com Forum - Powered by XMB 1.9.10 Karl

might be of some help

 

[blinx9900]

I will answer this question when i get home.

 

[EK9dan]

thanks for the link Lee, i will register and have a look,

And thanks Blink, if you can that would be great. I know your the man when it comes to built engines/ forced induction and what can be done.

 

[blinx9900]

ok dan, well you have a lot of questions, i wrote this little thread a while ago, i think you should give it a good read:

http://www.ek9.org/forum/forced-ind...ochargers-thread-pros-cons-all-explained.html

After reading that if you have any questions left and you still want to supercharge your car please post on this thread and pm me in case i miss it

 

[RagingAngel]

Now i ask,

*Has anyone got any experience in supercharged B18CR?

-Yup. We just completed a JRSC B18C(R) and ran a two day lapping session at the track.

*what superchargers are available for this engine?

-JRSC
-Vortech
-Rotrex (custom - meaning there is no kit, you must assemble the components yourself)

*What power can i run from this on stock engine/internals?

-240whp is reasonable, with 260whp really pushing it.

*What compression ratio would be needed to run sufficiant boost from the charger to reach that power? say around 10PSI i would of thought? Would stock compression not be suitable?

-10:1 - 10.5:1 is ideal.

*Can i just run a thicker head gasket to lower comp without messing around with low comp pistions?

- yes

*Ive heard there are bolt on kits that acheive around 250BHP, If so what are these kits, prices etc? Even though i want more then 250BHP as mentioned. Are there any bolt on kits that would gain the power i request?

-your best bet is the JRSC kit. However, in order to achieve any sort of reliable power, you need to address the issue of heat soak. The charger we did on the DC2-R had an aftercooler installed by LHT Performance.
LHT Performance, Honda & Acura Superchargers

*Baically whats involved in doing this and what sort of price are we talking?
I just want as much information as possible preferbly covering the points ive mentioned.

After i know what i need to then i get get serious about the idea and give it a good think.

Any help would be most appricated and will give rep for useful information that will help me along the way.

Thanks in advance.

- Count on spending around $4,000usd for a complete kit (tuning included) We are using Hondata's S300. Bear in mind, you need to purchase injectors separately. The stock pump is fine provided you upgrade the wiring. The charger we purchased was used but rebuilt and then sent to LHT for modification. There is a host of other bits we needed to make it work as reliably and efficiently as we have it setup now.

 

[EK9dan]

Repped to all for the very helpful information. (Lee i couldnt rep you as it wont let me due to repping you already recently) thanks

I will read through those couple of links and also thanks Raging angel, thats anwsered some important questions.

*Regarding lowering compression as i have a B18CR and its fairly high, in the 11's i believe, what thickness/make head gasket would be suitable to lower the compression down to 10:1-10:5:1?

*Also regarding the pump, If i were to replace pump for a higher flowing item such as walbro 255, would wiring still need to be upgraded? 440cc injectors should spray sufficient fuel to run 240-260WHP?

240WHP would be a nice enough figure so thats made me happy as i dont really want to open up the block for a rebuild. Thats a good 60WHP more then im running and the car is already very fast.

*Just checked the belts on the JRSC and they do a 9 and 11 PSI belt. Would 11PSI still be ok through the engine with 10:1-10:5:1?

 

[blinx9900]

RA any chance you guys logged the IAT's on that car? Did it have forged pistons or OEM cast? And what CR? Also what fuel did it run on? Thanks.

 

[RagingAngel]

*Regarding lowering compression as i have a B18CR and its fairly high, in the 11's i believe, what thickness/make head gasket would be suitable to lower the compression down to 10:1-10:5:1?

- The stock gasket is 0.026in. You need a 0.056in gasket to drop the compression to about 10.47:1. Cometic has what you need.

*Also regarding the pump, If i were to replace pump for a higher flowing item such as walbro 255, would wiring still need to be upgraded? 440cc injectors should spray sufficient fuel to run 240-260WHP?

- We are currently using 725cc injectors with the stock pump and stock FPR. Upon hooking up a motec lambda this proved to be a verifiable mistake. AFRs are good/solid once the car gets going, but at idle it fluctuates which leads me to believe the atomization is poor. We will be redoing this and going with smaller 550ccs or even 440ccs and running a higher fuel pressure to ensure good atomization.

I don't like using a walbro unless the car is going to make a lot more power than this. It's just not needed - the noise it makes is irritating too. Upgrade the wiring on the stock pump and you will do just fine.

240WHP would be a nice enough figure so thats made me happy as i dont really want to open up the block for a rebuild. Thats a good 60WHP more then im running and the car is already very fast.

*Just checked the belts on the JRSC and they do a 9 and 11 PSI belt. Would 11PSI still be ok through the engine with 10:1-10:5:1?

You do not need that much boost to make the amount of power you seek. We are right at 8psi on the gauge with an MVM stepper pulley, 4.2in. (IIRC) blower pulley and the stock ITR crank pulley.

Pre and post LHT intercooler - Tampa Racing

This is NOT our car, but what could expect from moderate boost. Higher boost = higher rpms = higher heat which is really bad.

 

[RagingAngel]

RA any chance you guys logged the IAT's on that car? Did it have forged pistons or OEM cast? And what CR? Also what fuel did it run on? Thanks.

the S300 was doing a bunch of weird shizz that day. When we finally did get it working it was like high 5s all around and just hit the track and go be idiots.

We didn't get a chance to log the IATs, but we did notice upon 3 laps or so, the car was heatsoaked and power dropped noticeably.

Motor is OEM cast pistons. Compression just a hair above 10.5:1 and it was on 98RON.

We'll get IATs during the next event when the car's tune is polished up some more.

 

[EK9dan]

- The stock gasket is 0.026in. You need a 0.056in gasket to drop the compression to about 10.47:1. Cometic has what you need.

Thats great.

- We are currently using 725cc injectors with the stock pump and stock FPR. Upon hooking up a motec lambda this proved to be a verifiable mistake. AFRs are good/solid once the car gets going, but at idle it fluctuates which leads me to believe the atomization is poor. We will be redoing this and going with smaller 550ccs or even 440ccs and running a higher fuel pressure to ensure good atomization.

I don't like using a walbro unless the car is going to make a lot more power than this. It's just not needed - the noise it makes is irritating too. Upgrade the wiring on the stock pump and you will do just fine.

Thats cool, i will go for the smaller cc with higher pressure liek you will be doing in that case

You do not need that much boost to make the amount of power you seek. We are right at 8psi on the gauge with an MVM stepper pulley, 4.2in. (IIRC) blower pulley and the stock ITR crank pulley.

Pre and post LHT intercooler - Tampa Racing

This is NOT our car, but what could expect from moderate boost. Higher boost = higher rpms = higher heat which is really bad.

The thing is, is that power he made at the Flywheel? As thats only around 245BHP. If thats WHP then thats great, but if thats making that power at the engine then that only around 200WHP.

My aim is to be pushing at least 240WHP.

What did your car make at 8PSI?


*So the ultimate question, What is required to run a JRSC at around 9PSI-10PSI on Stock B18CR RELIABLY?

-Thicker head gasket
-Bigger injectors (440CC)
-Hondata + GOOD TUNE to make sure A/F's are spot on
-Either higher flowing fuel pump OR stock pump + better wiring

Is there anything else on the list or is it that simple?

Im very serious about doing this so this is very helpful to know.

Thank you

 

[RagingAngel]

The thing is, is that power he made at the Flywheel? As thats only around 245BHP. If thats WHP then thats great, but if thats making that power at the engine then that only around 200WHP.

My aim is to be pushing at least 240WHP.

-While the dyno posted is listed as flywheel bhp, it's run off a dynapack that measures hub hp. You can expect that your wheels/tires will sap about 10-15whp.

What did your car make at 8PSI?

-We are sitting just right around 210whp at the moment on a very safe and conservative tune. cam gears were not done, we literally threw the kit on the car in 2 weeks time and had a bunch of other things to prepare. We expect to hit the dyno again in the next month or two.

*So the ultimate question, What is required to run a JRSC at around 9PSI-10PSI on Stock B18CR RELIABLY?

-Thicker head gasket
-Bigger injectors (440CC)
-Hondata + GOOD TUNE to make sure A/F's are spot on
-Either higher flowing fuel pump OR stock pump + better wiring

Is there anything else on the list or is it that simple?

Im very serious about doing this so this is very helpful to know.

-LHT aftercooler (we opted for the race version since it gets HOT in HK)
-large throttle body (the bigger the better)
-adjustable fuel pressure regulator
-outlaw engineering gasket kit
-B&R catchcan kit
-new clutch/flywheel (don't expect the stock unit to last long - we are using the Spec stage 3+ and it's brilliant)
-Kamikaze header
-ideally 3.0in. exhaust (our's is 2.5in. but we can run a dump pipe for track)
-cam gears
-GS-R/SiR-G intake cam
-better motor mounts or mount inserts or both
-MVM stepper pulley

One can say most of this stuff is not necessary, but I think otherwise, if you simply turn up the boost to try and achieve better numbers, you will experience dramatic heatsoak even on the dyno while trying to tune. This stuff can nickle and dime a person to death.

 

[blinx9900]

Motor is OEM cast pistons. Compression just a hair above 10.5:1 and it was on 98RON.

Wow, thank you so much, that really gives me some confidence to road race my LS pistoned turbo b16 now If you have any tips for road racing a cast piston FI motor feel free to pm me or post them here

 

[EK9dan]

-LHT aftercooler (we opted for the race version since it gets HOT in HK)
-large throttle body (the bigger the better)
-adjustable fuel pressure regulator
-outlaw engineering gasket kit
-B&R catchcan kit
-new clutch/flywheel (don't expect the stock unit to last long - we are using the Spec stage 3+ and it's brilliant)
-Kamikaze header
-ideally 3.0in. exhaust (our's is 2.5in. but we can run a dump pipe for track)
-cam gears
-GS-R/SiR-G intake cam
-better motor mounts or mount inserts or both
-MVM stepper pulley

One can say most of this stuff is not necessary, but I think otherwise, if you simply turn up the boost to try and achieve better numbers, you will experience dramatic heatsoak even on the dyno while trying to tune. This stuff can nickle and dime a person to death.

As im on a kind of budget, i do want to keep this set up to a minimum cost and try to get away with the purchase of a few things unless they are "completely" necessary. I will question your list if thats ok.

-LHT aftercooler (we opted for the race version since it gets HOT in HK) Necessary

-large throttle body (the bigger the better) Necessary

-adjustable fuel pressure regulator Necessary

-outlaw engineering gasket kit. What is this gasket kit for? Is it really needed? If so where do i get this?

-B&R catchcan kit. Not a problem i can get a catch can kit, they are cheap anyway.

-new clutch/flywheel (don't expect the stock unit to last long - we are using the Spec stage 3+ and it's brilliant) I will use the stock items for the time being until funds will allow. I dont really track the car so i shouldnt be killing it too much.

-Kamikaze header. I already have a high flow header from import srung, this specific item isnt need for the application is it?

-ideally 3.0in. exhaust (our's is 2.5in. but we can run a dump pipe for track) I will use my system for the moment to just to keep cost down. Im sure its around 2.5 inch.

-cam gears. Is this really necessary or can i do without?

-GS-R/SiR-G intake cam. Again, is this really necessary, can i not just keep the original B18CR inake cam?

-better motor mounts or mount inserts or both. Not a problem a can get some uprated engine mounts as thats a good idea anyway.

-MVM stepper pulley. Can you explain what this is? Is this a specif type of supercharger pulley that runs a specific boost level? Is this particular one necessary and how does it differ to others IF there are ones?

I hope im not asking too much hehe

Again much thanks

 

[blinx9900]

EK9dan I think your on the right track, things like the exhuast/cam gears/cams can be upgraded later and preferably all at once so you can have it retuned one time instead of multiple

The header RA has suggested has been proven to perform very well on JRSC B series, once again it can wait till later but you obviously will not reach your goal without these parts.

JRSC B series is very similar to building an NA setup, every part counts and it all adds up. It's not like a turbo setup that you can just turn up the boost since the JRSC efficiency limit is about 12psi (correct me if im wrong RA) you have to do everything you can maximize it

 

[RagingAngel]

-LHT aftercooler (we opted for the race version since it gets HOT in HK) Necessary

-This is a must for any serious JRSC car

-large throttle body (the bigger the better) Necessary

LHT Performance, Honda & Acura engine conversions
-We are using LHT's unit

-adjustable fuel pressure regulator Necessary

-We have yet to do this, but will likely go for a unit from fuelab
FUELAB Digital Fuel Delivery -

or synapse engineering's SC004 (I prefer this because there's no diaphragm - but its shape might be difficult to mount cleanly)
Synapse Engineering

And will probably supplement with a fuel rail from Skunk2
Composite Fuel Rail

and finally, we'll get rid of the hideous firewall mounted fuel filter with this:
FUELAB Digital Fuel Delivery -

-outlaw engineering gasket kit. What is this gasket kit for? Is it really needed? If so where do i get this?

- read about it here: Welcome to Outlaw Engineering

-B&R catchcan kit. Not a problem i can get a catch can kit, they are cheap anyway.

- Get the B&R kit and not something else, unless you can make it yourself.

-new clutch/flywheel (don't expect the stock unit to last long - we are using the Spec stage 3+ and it's brilliant) I will use the stock items for the time being until funds will allow. I dont really track the car so i shouldnt be killing it too much.

-pay me now or pay me later, you might as well do it all at once.

-Kamikaze header. I already have a high flow header from import srung, this specific item isnt need for the application is it?

-it will be necessary down the road.

-ideally 3.0in. exhaust (our's is 2.5in. but we can run a dump pipe for track) I will use my system for the moment to just to keep cost down. Im sure its around 2.5 inch.

-this can wait.

-cam gears. Is this really necessary or can i do without?

-GS-R/SiR-G intake cam. Again, is this really necessary, can i not just keep the original B18CR inake cam?

-These can wait, but will be necessary down the road.

-better motor mounts or mount inserts or both. Not a problem a can get some uprated engine mounts as thats a good idea anyway.

-Good!

-MVM stepper pulley. Can you explain what this is? Is this a specif type of supercharger pulley that runs a specific boost level? Is this particular one necessary and how does it differ to others IF there are ones?

Boost level is fixed and can only be changed with different combinations of crank pulley (larger = more boost), S/C snout pulley (smaller = more boost) and the stepper pulley. The MVM pulley enables you to run approximately 2psi more boost over each crank/SC snout pulley combo. The MVM is regarded as the best since it guides the belts properly. It is fitted to the alternator.

Jim @ motorvations makes this:
boostmaster4@msn.com
(205) 661-3600 (not sure about the phone number)

 

[RagingAngel]

EK9dan I think your on the right track, things like the exhuast/cam gears/cams can be upgraded later and preferably all at once so you can have it retuned one time instead of multiple

-Well said!

The header RA has suggested has been proven to perform very well on JRSC B series, once again it can wait till later but you obviously will not reach your goal without these parts.

-QFT!! (quoted for truth)

JRSC B series is very similar to building an NA setup, every part counts and it all adds up. It's not like a turbo setup that you can just turn up the boost since the JRSC efficiency limit is about 12psi (correct me if im wrong RA) you have to do everything you can maximize it

-It's well documented that once boost exceeds 8psi, heat becomes a major issue.

-the M60 charger will definitely come apart at 16,000rpm. With the available pulley combos, it is possible to reach about 14.2psi , but the charger will be spinning right near its limit @ approx. 15,933rpm. Basically anything above 12psi is not recommended, regardless of the setup.

Right now at 8psi, the charger is spinning just a hair under 12,200rpm.

 

[blinx9900]

If your trying to stick to a budget Professional Products makes 68mm Throttle bodies for very low price, i have been seeing them for about $150 shipped!! I use to sell a lot of them when i worked at a shop and i have one on my own car (i do not sell anymore but you should be able to find them).

 

[Sparx]

Hi. i have been pariticipating to three SC JRSC kits assembling. they were mooounted to b16a2 2x (11.2 c/r, alcolhol injection, s2 68 tb, kamikaze header, ported head, ...) 219 whp..
b18c6, (laminova, kamikaze, 66 tb, 9:1 c/r), only 290 hp on crank)
b18c6 (laminova, kamikaze, 66 tb, tuned cai, 10.5 cp frgd pistons, ) 302 crank hp, 9 psi

wery nice posts from RagingAngel!!! good advices!

if i may say, changing the pulley, from 9 to 11 psi, wont bring nothing exept more heating the compressed air.. it bring a slight addition in mid range trq, but nothinhg on power... be careful on IAT, knocking, egt...

kamikaze header is the best header for JRSC kit! laminova works great, but be careful if killing the engine on a highway with fullthrottle, may go up.. be careful if using the alcohol injection,550 rc's would be just enough for the 300 club, tune cai lenght for additional power, use variable pulleys for rocker arms, ....

cheers, Sparx