B16B - Balancing and Blueprinting


carbon

New Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
173
As per the title, what would the benefits be of blueprinting/balancing a B16B engine..

Oviously a lot of work is undertaken to the B16B to produce the higher output and increase rpm limit.

Benefits of balancing/blueprinting:

  • Smoother running
  • Increased power
  • Better response
  • Withstands higher RPM
  • Engine revs smoother/faster
  • Increased durability
  • Smoother power delivery

These are just a few bits of info that I have found by looking around and speaking to a few people..

So generally, any recommendations/more info?
 


olly ek9

Track Nut
Donator
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
2,060
don`t expect as many gains and differences as you would on a lesser engine, The B16B is very good from the factory...................

most tuners dream of getting 100bhp a litre on an N/A engine and the B16B is more than that standard.............
 


blinx9900

Super Moderator
Donator
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
10,899
don`t expect as many gains and differences as you would on a lesser engine, The B16B is very good from the factory...................
Well said, the Type-R engines already have this from the factory (to a degree), blueprinting and balancing further should only be considered if your rebuilding the motor with new forged pistons/rods etc OR you race in a class that limits you drastically to OEM internals so you have to make the most of what you have.
 


olly ek9

Track Nut
Donator
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
2,060
Also if your serious about going down this route i believe EK9Turbo aka Will IBspec has a few tricks up his sleeve with balancing and coatings etc prob worth dropping him a PM
 


carbon

New Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
173
Was generally just wondering, because after looking through the Spoon Power Unit specs, and speaking to a few people.. that all of their engines are balanced/blueprinted + spoon headgasket + uprated oil pump + few other extras, but like you have been saying and I mentioned at the start, the B16B's are done to a degree from the factory.

So based on reading through that, was just wondering if anyone had undertaken a blueprinte/balance on their engine, with OEM specs to see what benefits have been obtained!
 


blinx9900

Super Moderator
Donator
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
10,899
So based on reading through that, was just wondering if anyone had undertaken a blueprinte/balance on their engine, with OEM specs to see what benefits have been obtained!
The thing to really understand is that blueprint/balanceing is done to achieve a higher degree of safety/reliability when the engine is screaming its heart out at those high high rpm's, one example is i had a friend that built a 84x89mm B series using a B18a crank/block/forged pistons/rods and revved it to over 9000rpm, the motor never had any reliability issues at those rpms because it was built properly balanced and blueprinted, even without a crank girdle!
 


RagingAngel

本田 Gearing Authority
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
2,173
one example is i had a friend that built a 84x89mm B series using a B18a crank/block/forged pistons/rods and revved it to over 9000rpm, the motor never had any reliability issues at those rpms because it was built properly balanced and blueprinted, even without a crank girdle!
It's one thing to take it to 9000rpm on a daily basis for a few gears a few times a day...but an entirely different thing to have it do sustained 20 minute sessions 4-6 times a day on a track.

Make no mistake, I'm not attacking yours or your friend's experience here, but let's not underscore the importance of the girdle when one MAY consider tracking such a setup.
 


blinx9900

Super Moderator
Donator
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
10,899
It's one thing to take it to 9000rpm on a daily basis for a few gears a few times a day...but an entirely different thing to have it do sustained 20 minute sessions 4-6 times a day on a track.

Make no mistake, I'm not attacking yours or your friend's experience here, but let's not underscore the importance of the girdle when one MAY consider tracking such a setup.
Agreed, perhaps i should have specified this was a drag car, i am actually a big fan of even the OEM b16b girdle, i am somewhat sad that i no longer have one since i have a b16a block now :(
 


RagingAngel

本田 Gearing Authority
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
2,173
the only reason why the 16A block didn't have such a girdle was because of the rod stroke ratio.

Honda deemed it was beneficial in the end to include the girdle on the 16B because it was already part of the parts bin for the 18C, but they found it helpful for their endurance racing program.

Apparently helped with things like keeping main and rod bearing wear within acceptable limits and of course extended high rpm durability.
 


Jacco

!
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
45
Everything what RA and blinxie said +1

and my 2 cents as to the question that was asked:
So based on reading through that, was just wondering if anyone had undertaken a blueprinte/balance on their engine, with OEM specs to see what benefits have been obtained!
Unfortunately I don't have any first-hand experience to back this up but from everything what I have read, heard and seen, japanese engines in general have very small tolerances to begin with, so usually you achieve very close to nothing by blueprinting/balancing them. This especially applies to Subaru STI EJ and Honda Type-R engines (the only two I'm certain of) as they are already blueprinted to a certain degree at the factory (as said before). But, as already said, when put to hard use every detail counts and there is always the chance of having a "monday-piece" engine, which was put together by very hungover/depressed/pissed/bad people on a very bad day (usually monday). And as said, if you are rebuilding your motor you should blueprint it while you're at it anyway.

In short, everything is possible (it usually is), you can never be too sure, but chances are it's just fine already, except when rebuilding the thing.
 


carbon

New Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
173
Everything what RA and blinxie said +1

and my 2 cents as to the question that was asked:


Unfortunately I don't have any first-hand experience to back this up but from everything what I have read, heard and seen, japanese engines in general have very small tolerances to begin with, so usually you achieve very close to nothing by blueprinting/balancing them. This especially applies to Subaru STI EJ and Honda Type-R engines (the only two I'm certain of) as they are already blueprinted to a certain degree at the factory (as said before). But, as already said, when put to hard use every detail counts and there is always the chance of having a "monday-piece" engine, which was put together by very hungover/depressed/pissed/bad people on a very bad day (usually monday). And as said, if you are rebuilding your motor you should blueprint it while you're at it anyway.

In short, everything is possible (it usually is), you can never be too sure, but chances are it's just fine already, except when rebuilding the thing.

Thanks for the info, however when mentioning that, in conjunction with the Spoon comment before, Spoon do another balance/blueprint to their engines they sell - ranging from the B16 to B16B to B18C, therefore was just wondering that there must be some benefit from undertaking it to a B16B engine as it is.

Cheers :)
 


olly ek9

Track Nut
Donator
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
2,060
spoon just get a huge stock of conrods / pistons in and weigh them all write the weights on them and put them together in close weight match sets,,
its pureley a selection process of the most evenly weighted parts from a stock of parts,

this shows how good honda got it from the factory,
on other manufacturers engines you would end up removing weight from the heavier parts to create your own matched weight set,
 


carbon

New Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
173
spoon just get a huge stock of conrods / pistons in and weigh them all write the weights on them and put them together in close weight match sets,,
its pureley a selection process of the most evenly weighted parts from a stock of parts,

this shows how good honda got it from the factory,
on other manufacturers engines you would end up removing weight from the heavier parts to create your own matched weight set,
and blueprint/balance? lol
 

Last edited:

olly ek9

Track Nut
Donator
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
2,060
Think you're looking too far into the blueprint / balance concept , how about ya post a description of what you recon it entails I'm sure raging angel will clarify what gets done at the spoon shop
 


carbon

New Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
173
Think you're looking too far into the blueprint / balance concept , how about ya post a description of what you recon it entails I'm sure raging angel will clarify what gets done at the spoon shop
What is 'balanced and blueprinted by Spoon'?
- All engine components are weighed to 0.01 grams precision
- Engine components such as pistons and rods are balanced, they all weight within 0.01 grams of each other
- Spoon is able to balance these components because they order/weight/sort hundreds of pistons, rods, etc. from Hondaand sort them into balanced sets
- Bolts are torqued within 0.01N/M of Honda specifications
- What does balancing and blueprinting do? it makes the engine run incredibly smooth, reduces power lost to inefficiency, power delivery is extremely smooth, power is higher across the entire rpm band compared to a Honda assembled engine, engine/throttle response is better, engine revs smoother/faster and is able to withstand high rpm better, engine life is improved is improved considerably.


Just the paragraph out of 6 about the balancing/blueprinting, but just what ive read so.. and Spoon will only tell me that they blueprint/balance.
 


olly ek9

Track Nut
Donator
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
2,060
What is 'balanced and blueprinted by Spoon'?
- All engine components are weighed to 0.01 grams precision
- Engine components such as pistons and rods are balanced, they all weight within 0.01 grams of each other
- Spoon is able to balance these components because they order/weight/sort hundreds of pistons, rods, etc. from Hondaand sort them into balanced sets
- Bolts are torqued within 0.01N/M of Honda specifications


Just the paragraph out of 6 about the balancing/blueprinting, but just what ive read so.. and Spoon will only tell me that they blueprint/balance.
ideal so they just do pretty much what i said then, :nice:
they wont tell you no more because they don`t do anymore :nice:

all the rotating assemblies are already balanced indididually from honda, the crank and flywheel for instance,
with hondas these are all balanced seperatley,
some tuners will dynamically balance things by bolting the clutch up to the flywheel and to teh crank along with the belt pullies and rotating it on a dynamic balancing machine they will then remove weight from areas on the flywheel and sometimes the crank so its all balanced as one peice,,

I doubt you would see any gains doing this on a Honda engine,

also points to concider is that backyard shops do not have the facilities and funds to buy as good a precision equipment as what honda have in teh factory,, for instance, no way is someones shop crank grinder , cylinder hone or dynamic balancing rig going to be as sophisicated as what honda have in the factory...

just my views on the subject :nice:
 

Last edited:

RagingAngel

本田 Gearing Authority
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
2,173
- Spoon is able to balance these components because they order/weight/sort hundreds of pistons, rods, etc. from Honda and sort them into balanced sets
This is what is known as selective balancing.

Nothing really special about it. The Spoon shortblocks that we ordered before had nifty weights marked in permanent marker on the tops of the pistons.

Between the price of a brand new shortblock from the dealer and Spoon, there was barely any difference so we opted for the Spoon unit because of this slightly better conditioning practice.

carbon - you're thinking way too deep into this.... for a normal road going motor that sees occasional track events one could almost blindly through together an entire rotating assembly for a B16B and be confident that it will last a very long time and perform brilliantly.
 


carbon

New Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
173
ideal so they just do pretty much what i said then, :nice:
they wont tell you no more because they don`t do anymore :nice:

all the rotating assemblies are already balanced indididually from honda, the crank and flywheel for instance,
with hondas these are all balanced seperatley,
some tuners will dynamically balance things by bolting the clutch up to the flywheel and to teh crank along with the belt pullies and rotating it on a dynamic balancing machine they will then remove weight from areas on the flywheel and sometimes the crank so its all balanced as one peice,,

I doubt you would see any gains doing this on a Honda engine,

also points to concider is that backyard shops do not have the facilities and funds to buy as good a precision equipment as what honda have in teh factory,, for instance, no way is someones shop crank grinder , cylinder hone or dynamic balancing rig going to be as sophisicated as what honda have in the factory...

just my views on the subject :nice:
Yeah, except you deleted the last bullet point from what I said when you quoted me lol... backyard shops being any old garage? or a backyard shop that say does B Series/K20 Forged Engines for race teams? Understand what you mean by being compared to Honda, etc but was just wondering..


This is what is known as selective balancing.

Nothing really special about it. The Spoon shortblocks that we ordered before had nifty weights marked in permanent marker on the tops of the pistons.

Between the price of a brand new shortblock from the dealer and Spoon, there was barely any difference so we opted for the Spoon unit because of this slightly better conditioning practice.

carbon - you're thinking way too deep into this.... for a normal road going motor that sees occasional track events one could almost blindly through together an entire rotating assembly for a B16B and be confident that it will last a very long time and perform brilliantly.
So just out of curiousity, where does the extra power (althought not huge) produced by the Spoon Block come from?

How much did you pay for a Spoon block if you dont mind me asking?

Thats fair enough, however the comment "one could almost blindly through together an entire rotating assembly for a B16B and be confident that it will last a very long time and perform brilliantly"

Not me mate, I dont have the same level of experience as some people in this forum, I cant do anything like where as people like you who will have more experience and/or work in the industry as such would be able to, so please bear that in mind :) I wouldnt have a clue!
 


Top