Need new clutch
- Thread starter Phaze
- Start date
AndyH
Member
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2007
- Messages
- 860
not sure about the clutch ..although tegiwa seem quite a respected company.
as for flywheels..there was a guy selling lightweight ones at a decent price on - Forum.HondaEvolutions.com :: Index
cant seem to find the post so might be worth checking it out and posting yourself
as for flywheels..there was a guy selling lightweight ones at a decent price on - Forum.HondaEvolutions.com :: Index
cant seem to find the post so might be worth checking it out and posting yourself
AndyH
Member
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2007
- Messages
- 860
found the post ---
Forum.HondaEvolutions.com :: Log in
Lightweight Cromoly Flywheels for Honda B, H, D and K series
Go on, treat your engine to a lightweight flywheel
(B Series Super Karui Pictured)
I have for sale various Kaiten Karui (lightweight) and Super Karui (Super Lightweight) one peice cromoly flywheels.
These are one peice cromoly steel flywheels made in Japan. Precision forged from cromoly steel. The ring gear teeth are machined to match Honda's original flywheel to give perfect starter engagement. Full bolt on installation with no changes. Designed to take Honda pilot bearings for proper gearbox input shaft support, unlike some cheaper cromoly flywheels that only have a bronze bushing for inferior support.
The flywheels are then nitro carburized. Nitro carborising is a heat treatment process that produces a thin black surface layer giving very good corrosion protection. It's a process most used for example on many windscreen wiper arms.
Available applications and prices (for Honda Revs members and non members). All pictures are around 50kb.
B Series Super Karui (4.0kg) £145
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_B-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_B-003.jpg
Compatible with either 6 or 9 bolt pressure plates.
For example, pictured with a used ITR clutch:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_B_ITR_CLUTCH.jpg
B Series Karui (4.4kg) £135
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/L_B-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/L_B-003.jpg
H Series Super Karui (4.6kg) £150
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_H-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_H-003.jpg
H Series Karui (5.1kg) £140
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/L_H-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/L_H-003.jpg
D Series Super Karui (3.98kg) £120
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_D-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_D-003.jpg
D Series Karui (4.4kg) £110
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_D-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_D-003.jpg
K Series Super Karui (4.0kg) £165
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_K-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_K-003.jpg
IMPORTANT NOTE: K series flywheel is a direct replacement for the Type R flywheel. It is only compatible with the Honda Type R Pressure plate (EP3/DC5), or compatible clutches, not the lesser clutches.
Postage is £18.50 per flywheel for Royal Mail Special delivery. Slightly on the expensive side, but it has good tracking and insurance. Wherever possible flywheels will be dispatched within 24 hours of receiving payment. For people in the Yorkshire area, I can deliver free of charge to the monthly meet at Sherburn.
All the flywheels are in stock. Duty and VAT have been paid so the price you see is the price you pay.
All flywheels are checked before dispatch. They're all bubble wrapped then packing in two boxes for maximum protecting during shipping.
Some common questions and answers:
How does a lighter flywheel improve performance?
When you accelerate, the engine has to accelerate both the drivetrain and the car. This is why an engine can produce more power when braked at a single rpm on a dyno compared to when accelerating - it's not having to accelerate the internals. The few kg's difference in flywheel weight doesn't seem to be enough to make a difference. In fact the difference can be quite substantial. Everyone knows that cars accelerate quicker in low gears. For example 1st gear on a 96 ITR gearbox has an overal ratio of 14.21:1 - so the weight of the car appears to the engine to only be about one fourteenth of the real weight. Since the flywheel is bolted to the crank the engine always 'sees' the full weight of the flywheel. So for example, assuming the car weighed 1000kg, due to gearing it would be like 70.3kg to the engine. But the rotating mass of the engine isn't affected by the gearing, so the engine still has to accelerate all the mass of pistons,
con rods, crank, flywheel clutch etc. If you assume that the engines rotational mass weighs 40kg, the engine's accelerating 110.3kg. Compared to ~110kg losing 3-4kg with a lighter flywheel suddenly seems worthwhile. Of course the difference in acceleration is less in higher gears as the effective weight reduction is lower. For example using the same
assumptions 2nd gear has an overall ratio of 9.26:1. So the weight of the car the engine would 'see' is then 107.9kg. 3-4kg saving as a percentage of 107.9kg+Engine rotational mass isn't as big an advantage. Honda fitted a lighter flywheel to the facelift EP3 Civic Type R. This contributed heavily to the 0.2s improvement in quoted 0-62 mph time. The lighter flywheel on the facelift car is still signifcantly heavier than the 4kg Kaiten Super Karui flywheel.
Any other advantages?
Reducing the rotating mass of the engine allows the engine to change rpm quicker. Most people find that this makes matching rpms when downshifting becomes easier. It also reduces the load on the clutch springs if the rpm's aren't matched as there's less mass needing to accelerate to match rpm.
Won't I lose torque?
No. The torque output of the engine is related to the amount of downward pressure on the piston and the stroke of the crankshaft. However since less energy is needed to rotate the engine due to the reduced mass the engine will make less torque to maintain the same rpm when idling. The ECU simply bleeds less air and mixes less fuel as not as much energy is
needed. This is where the beleif that lightweight flywheels lose torque comes from. The engine can make exactly the same amount of torque as it could before the flywheel weight change. Some people find having less torque being generated at idle can make setting off slightly more difficult, especially if the driver is in the habit on raising the clutch before adding any throttle. Since the engine makes the same amount of torque for the same amount of airflow simply adding a very small amount of throttle will cause the engine to make the same torque as it did before the flywheel change.
What about in traffic?
It can be slightly harder driving in traffic with a lighter flywheel. In particular if you like creeping in traffic with the engine idling (foot off the pedal) you'll find the engine more reluctant to do this. Most drivers do not find this a problem.
Will it be too light?
Even the lightest Super Karui flywheels still have sufficient weight to be perfectly usable for normal road use. These flywheels are designed for road and track use, rather than some of the extremely light pure race options. For all applications except the K-series two weights are offered so anyone concerned that the flywheel will be too light can opt for the heavier option.
What's the difference between Karui and Super Karui models?
The Karui flywheels are slightly heavier and have more mass on the outside near the ring gear. Having more mass on the outside increases the interia of the flywheel. The Karui flywheels are intended for people who are concerned that the lighter Super Karui flywheel will be too light for them in daily use. Most people won't have find a problem with the Super Karui flywheels, but the Karui flywheels are offered so anyone concerned about this can still benefit from a lighter flywheel while having a little more inertia for easier daily use.
Why cromoly? Why not cast iron or aluminium?
Standard flywheels are usual made from cast iron. Cast iron works well as it's cheap to produce and easy to machine. However, cast iron's strength properties aren't ideal for a lightweight flywheel limiting how light you can safely make a flywheel. Hybrid aluminium and steel flywheels can be made using steel for the ring gear and the clutch friction surface. This adds additional failure points with the possiblity of the ring gear slipping, or the friction surface warping as well as dealing with the different rates of expansion when heated of the different metals. Aluminium is also limited in how thin the flywheel can be made in the ring gear area, limiting how light the out section can be made. Since the outer section is more critical for the inertia this limits how low an inertia an aluminium flywheel can have while still having sufficient strength. Cromoly steel avoids all these problems. The flywheel can be forged in one peice removing the risks
associated with seperate rings gears and friction surfaces. Cromoly also allows the mass on the outside of the flywheel to be minimised while retaining sufficient strength for safety. This allows for a very low inertia for a given total weight.
What's included?
Just the flywheel itself. I'd recommended that a new clutch, pilot bearing and release bearing are fitted at the same time.
Do you offer installation?
I general, no. I'd recommend using a local specialist or garage. For example Revolutions dealers such as Performance Autoworks.
Do you supply clutches?
No, sorry. Only the flywheels.
Any special deal for members?
For B-series and D-series flywheels members receive a free pilot bearing.
How do I order?
Email please, rather than pm. Brian@TurtleDynamics.co.uk
Any other questions please either post in this thread, or email.
I only do work or sell parts that I would use on my own car. I stand behind the work I do and the parts I sell. If there's ever any problem, please contact me and I'll do my best to resolve it.
Thanks,
-Brian.
COPIED FROM HONDA EVOLUTIONS FORUM!
Forum.HondaEvolutions.com :: Log in
Lightweight Cromoly Flywheels for Honda B, H, D and K series
Go on, treat your engine to a lightweight flywheel
(B Series Super Karui Pictured)
I have for sale various Kaiten Karui (lightweight) and Super Karui (Super Lightweight) one peice cromoly flywheels.
These are one peice cromoly steel flywheels made in Japan. Precision forged from cromoly steel. The ring gear teeth are machined to match Honda's original flywheel to give perfect starter engagement. Full bolt on installation with no changes. Designed to take Honda pilot bearings for proper gearbox input shaft support, unlike some cheaper cromoly flywheels that only have a bronze bushing for inferior support.
The flywheels are then nitro carburized. Nitro carborising is a heat treatment process that produces a thin black surface layer giving very good corrosion protection. It's a process most used for example on many windscreen wiper arms.
Available applications and prices (for Honda Revs members and non members). All pictures are around 50kb.
B Series Super Karui (4.0kg) £145
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_B-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_B-003.jpg
Compatible with either 6 or 9 bolt pressure plates.
For example, pictured with a used ITR clutch:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_B_ITR_CLUTCH.jpg
B Series Karui (4.4kg) £135
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/L_B-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/L_B-003.jpg
H Series Super Karui (4.6kg) £150
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_H-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_H-003.jpg
H Series Karui (5.1kg) £140
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/L_H-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/L_H-003.jpg
D Series Super Karui (3.98kg) £120
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_D-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_D-003.jpg
D Series Karui (4.4kg) £110
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_D-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_D-003.jpg
K Series Super Karui (4.0kg) £165
Pictures:
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_K-001.jpg
http://www.zen96618.zen.co.uk/Turtle/Kaiten/SL_K-003.jpg
IMPORTANT NOTE: K series flywheel is a direct replacement for the Type R flywheel. It is only compatible with the Honda Type R Pressure plate (EP3/DC5), or compatible clutches, not the lesser clutches.
Postage is £18.50 per flywheel for Royal Mail Special delivery. Slightly on the expensive side, but it has good tracking and insurance. Wherever possible flywheels will be dispatched within 24 hours of receiving payment. For people in the Yorkshire area, I can deliver free of charge to the monthly meet at Sherburn.
All the flywheels are in stock. Duty and VAT have been paid so the price you see is the price you pay.
All flywheels are checked before dispatch. They're all bubble wrapped then packing in two boxes for maximum protecting during shipping.
Some common questions and answers:
How does a lighter flywheel improve performance?
When you accelerate, the engine has to accelerate both the drivetrain and the car. This is why an engine can produce more power when braked at a single rpm on a dyno compared to when accelerating - it's not having to accelerate the internals. The few kg's difference in flywheel weight doesn't seem to be enough to make a difference. In fact the difference can be quite substantial. Everyone knows that cars accelerate quicker in low gears. For example 1st gear on a 96 ITR gearbox has an overal ratio of 14.21:1 - so the weight of the car appears to the engine to only be about one fourteenth of the real weight. Since the flywheel is bolted to the crank the engine always 'sees' the full weight of the flywheel. So for example, assuming the car weighed 1000kg, due to gearing it would be like 70.3kg to the engine. But the rotating mass of the engine isn't affected by the gearing, so the engine still has to accelerate all the mass of pistons,
con rods, crank, flywheel clutch etc. If you assume that the engines rotational mass weighs 40kg, the engine's accelerating 110.3kg. Compared to ~110kg losing 3-4kg with a lighter flywheel suddenly seems worthwhile. Of course the difference in acceleration is less in higher gears as the effective weight reduction is lower. For example using the same
assumptions 2nd gear has an overall ratio of 9.26:1. So the weight of the car the engine would 'see' is then 107.9kg. 3-4kg saving as a percentage of 107.9kg+Engine rotational mass isn't as big an advantage. Honda fitted a lighter flywheel to the facelift EP3 Civic Type R. This contributed heavily to the 0.2s improvement in quoted 0-62 mph time. The lighter flywheel on the facelift car is still signifcantly heavier than the 4kg Kaiten Super Karui flywheel.
Any other advantages?
Reducing the rotating mass of the engine allows the engine to change rpm quicker. Most people find that this makes matching rpms when downshifting becomes easier. It also reduces the load on the clutch springs if the rpm's aren't matched as there's less mass needing to accelerate to match rpm.
Won't I lose torque?
No. The torque output of the engine is related to the amount of downward pressure on the piston and the stroke of the crankshaft. However since less energy is needed to rotate the engine due to the reduced mass the engine will make less torque to maintain the same rpm when idling. The ECU simply bleeds less air and mixes less fuel as not as much energy is
needed. This is where the beleif that lightweight flywheels lose torque comes from. The engine can make exactly the same amount of torque as it could before the flywheel weight change. Some people find having less torque being generated at idle can make setting off slightly more difficult, especially if the driver is in the habit on raising the clutch before adding any throttle. Since the engine makes the same amount of torque for the same amount of airflow simply adding a very small amount of throttle will cause the engine to make the same torque as it did before the flywheel change.
What about in traffic?
It can be slightly harder driving in traffic with a lighter flywheel. In particular if you like creeping in traffic with the engine idling (foot off the pedal) you'll find the engine more reluctant to do this. Most drivers do not find this a problem.
Will it be too light?
Even the lightest Super Karui flywheels still have sufficient weight to be perfectly usable for normal road use. These flywheels are designed for road and track use, rather than some of the extremely light pure race options. For all applications except the K-series two weights are offered so anyone concerned that the flywheel will be too light can opt for the heavier option.
What's the difference between Karui and Super Karui models?
The Karui flywheels are slightly heavier and have more mass on the outside near the ring gear. Having more mass on the outside increases the interia of the flywheel. The Karui flywheels are intended for people who are concerned that the lighter Super Karui flywheel will be too light for them in daily use. Most people won't have find a problem with the Super Karui flywheels, but the Karui flywheels are offered so anyone concerned about this can still benefit from a lighter flywheel while having a little more inertia for easier daily use.
Why cromoly? Why not cast iron or aluminium?
Standard flywheels are usual made from cast iron. Cast iron works well as it's cheap to produce and easy to machine. However, cast iron's strength properties aren't ideal for a lightweight flywheel limiting how light you can safely make a flywheel. Hybrid aluminium and steel flywheels can be made using steel for the ring gear and the clutch friction surface. This adds additional failure points with the possiblity of the ring gear slipping, or the friction surface warping as well as dealing with the different rates of expansion when heated of the different metals. Aluminium is also limited in how thin the flywheel can be made in the ring gear area, limiting how light the out section can be made. Since the outer section is more critical for the inertia this limits how low an inertia an aluminium flywheel can have while still having sufficient strength. Cromoly steel avoids all these problems. The flywheel can be forged in one peice removing the risks
associated with seperate rings gears and friction surfaces. Cromoly also allows the mass on the outside of the flywheel to be minimised while retaining sufficient strength for safety. This allows for a very low inertia for a given total weight.
What's included?
Just the flywheel itself. I'd recommended that a new clutch, pilot bearing and release bearing are fitted at the same time.
Do you offer installation?
I general, no. I'd recommend using a local specialist or garage. For example Revolutions dealers such as Performance Autoworks.
Do you supply clutches?
No, sorry. Only the flywheels.
Any special deal for members?
For B-series and D-series flywheels members receive a free pilot bearing.
How do I order?
Email please, rather than pm. Brian@TurtleDynamics.co.uk
Any other questions please either post in this thread, or email.
I only do work or sell parts that I would use on my own car. I stand behind the work I do and the parts I sell. If there's ever any problem, please contact me and I'll do my best to resolve it.
Thanks,
-Brian.
COPIED FROM HONDA EVOLUTIONS FORUM!
RagingAngel
本田 Gearing Authority
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2008
- Messages
- 2,161
Forget Exedy St. 1, they are generally considered to be very hit and miss. Those who have good experiences with them, love them to death.
Those who have had them blow up on them are still cursing them. With the amount of noted failures being almost 50/50 - I tend to shy away and would recommend you go with the OEM DC2-R clutch if you want something mild and mainly for street use.
I do like the Exedy 3 puck thick disc though.
Those who have had them blow up on them are still cursing them. With the amount of noted failures being almost 50/50 - I tend to shy away and would recommend you go with the OEM DC2-R clutch if you want something mild and mainly for street use.
I do like the Exedy 3 puck thick disc though.
Vtecsilver
EK9 Owner Oct2001->
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2008
- Messages
- 75
You could take a look at a Helix organic clutch
blinx9900
Super Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 10,880
I was about to say the same thing, seems there QC is not adequate, i had a friend destroy an exedy oem replacement in 3 weeks while another is still driving on his years later, both on stock power levels.
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,227
ive had the Excedy Stage II clutch together with the 9.75lbs Excedy flywheel over a yr.
Works fine for me, tho clutch can b bit too much on daily driver when hitting traffic... tho i guess it all depends on the individual preferences...
Works fine for me, tho clutch can b bit too much on daily driver when hitting traffic... tho i guess it all depends on the individual preferences...
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2007
- Messages
- 3,166
The oem clutch will easily handle 'a bit of tuning' - that to me is cams & ecu. The Exedy stage 1, is firmer, I didnt notice it much when I put it in, but later I found heavy traffic to be a real pain, then it wasnt til I put the oem one back in I realised just how much stiffer it had been.
My Exedy stage 1 lasted ONLY 15K miles, including 2 trackdays and my gearchanging is very kind. Dont waste your money, as I have said before - TGM run a standard clutch in their racecar - enough said.
My Exedy stage 1 lasted ONLY 15K miles, including 2 trackdays and my gearchanging is very kind. Dont waste your money, as I have said before - TGM run a standard clutch in their racecar - enough said.